Germphobia is a class thing, isn't it?

[tenbob]

Full disclosure: I'm slightly fascinated by the posters here who won't wash their hands on a towel at someone else's house, buy cakes at a school fair or use a public toilet for fear of germs, and admit to being the sort of person who eats stuff past the sell-by date if it passes the sniff test

But I've just spent a couple of days working at a food fair type thing and noticed a definite class divide in germ tolerance

There was no end of stereotypical posh families who would share their ice cream with the Labrador, eat food that had fallen on the floor etc

And the mums (it was always the mums) who were obsessively wet wiping everything were non-posh

Can you prove or debunk my theory?
And if I'm right, why are the upper classes so relaxed about dirt?

[LadyLance]

I do think this is true to an extent. I also think some people at the "U" end of the spectrum have a lot of inherited clutter, which also makes the house a bit harder to keep clean. I think part of it is also growing up with horses, dogs etc- everything is harder to clean and standards slip. I also know some fairly non-posh people with horses who have fairly messy houses!

I think it can also be a bit of a country vs urban thing. In the countryside there is more dirt, more messing around with animals, more eating eggs straight from the chickens and so-on. Whereas in towns there is perhaps less of this and people are more conscious of appearances. Sometimes, it just doesn't seem worthwhile, for example, cleaning my car, when I know I'm going to drive it down a muddy lane tomorrow and it will get dirty again, and I've got half a tack shop in the back anyway!

I don't think the sort of people I'm thinking of are blaze about rats though- I mean, they wouldn't freak out at them, but they would definitely deal with them if they knew they were there.

This sort of thing does manifest itself in all sorts of ways, though. For example, my family are pretty middle class, and my mother would definitely rather eat someone's home baked cakes compared to shop bought ones. She also used to let me lick the bowl as a child- I know a lot of people who are horrified by this because of the raw egg, but somehow I survived!

[ElenOfTheWays]

Maybe rich people can afford a spare immune system.

I'm pretty untidy but not dirty as such. The dogs licking ice creams just turns my stomach. < not envy.

[MiniTheMinx]

I go to extraordinary lengths to avoid touching the door handles in public loos, I am fussy about eating food from street sellers and fetes.

I do have some fitted carpets. But we also have some stone floors and antique carpets. I'm horrified if people take their shoes off in the hall, my floors are filthy , keep your shoes on.

The house is ok, I'm no clean freak. We are all alive. I don't much care what other people think, if you don't like my home you can leave. No one has turned down invitations or let their stomachs touch their backbones.

Father from wealthy immigrant background and Russian Jews, mother from farming background. My own upbringing was a weird mish mash of values and norms. House full of animal and people, boots on, with my mother plumping up cushions, readrawing the curtains and slavishly ironing everything. I'm more relaxed than her. People around me were very diverse, and I have friends from UC to Irish travellers. All have something in common.....they are all great people and probably not apt to make judgements. Whereas the MC friends I acquired through my sons attending a small pre prep were all hopeless neurotics. It was painful to be around them. They weirdly thought I must be like them, they were relentless and hard to avoid, but their endless questioning of my lifestyle choices, gawping at our furniture (all antique and some inherited) and their wiping their children's hands at every opportunity made me feel uncomfortable.

As far as my experience goes, I feel very uncomfortable around the aspiring LMC or aspirational WC. I'm WC.

[mindutopia]

Well, OCD is a psychiatric disorder. I doubt it has anything to do with class, except perhaps for the fact that working class and poor people generally access healthcare less and are less likely to be diagnosed. It is triggered by stress though and trauma so anyone with a lot of that is likely to struggle with it more just like all mental illnesses. Whether those struggles are taken seriously by doctors is another thing altogether.

I have OCD as did my dad (it’s often genetic). He grew up pretty dirt poor in tenement housing and his parents never really worked, on benefits probably their whole adult lives. I on the other had grew up pretty middle class, private school, ponies, postgraduate educated professional, I drive an aging Volvo, pretty stereotypical middle class. I’d say we’re equally freaked out about disorder and filth. My brain does that though. Nothing to do with class. I’d be equally stressed about my dd having no soap to wash her hands if I was poor.

[Laiste]

Very interesting thread.

The maternal side of my family came from humble beginnings. Tiny little terraces in Fulham. My mum remembers her mum and her nan and her aunts and all the neighbors (early 1900s onwards now) scrubbing the street step to their front doors and applying that red stuff to it every single morning. Eyebrows were raised at anyone who did not unless they were on deaths door and then a neighbor would come over and do it for them. Appearances appearances. The washing (hand done) had to be out by 4 in the morning practically hung across the street or up the side alley and was judged too!

[Glovepuppet1]

Ifailed

"Glovepuppet1 I take your point, but I suspect being bought-up to think cleanliness and tidiness are so important less people judge you makes you far more susceptible to the relentless advertising telling you that germs lurk everywhere (they do) & you must be constantly at war with them."

First rule of advertising? Make people feel guilty then show them how to repent!

Basic hygiene is fine, over-reliance on stuff like antibiotics or hand gels or products that claim to kill "99% of all known germs" is not - in fact, it does more harm than good, both hygienically, mentally and emotionally!

[Ansumpasty]

The poster who said the shoes on had come from the Scandinavian influence because of IKEA etc, sorry but that’s wrong. My husband is Scandinavian and in his country, it’s considered incredibly rude to not take your shoes off at the door. He was shocked when he witnessed English people keeping their shoes on indoors. He’s from a very middle class family but it’s custom, so his class plays no part in it

[Glovepuppet1]

ElenoftheWays

"The dogs licking ice creams just turns my stomach. envy < not envy."

Sleeping with dogs in the bed?

I'm far from a cleanliness freak, but when it comes to this no - just no. How unhygienic is that?!!!!

[Lethaldrizzle]

My in-laws are well posh and are obsessed with hand washing at every stage of the day, coming in from the garden etc etc. I grew up dirt poor and hand washing was never really a thing. But I do now have an awesome immune system. However I have noticed now that more working class families seem more obsessed with dirt in places like playgrounds, sand pits etc. I couldn't give a monkey's about mud dirt spillages etc. Its all part of the glorious messiness of childhood

[lottiegarbanzo]

No Ansumpasty I said the opposite - you're agreeing with me and substantiating my point.

Shoes off at the door is generational too though and becoming a norm amongst very MC people. I think it's some combination of American and Scandinavian influences - Habitat then Ikea, varnished floorboards and simple, carpetless furnishings.

[tenbob]

glove

That's kind of my point - you have a knee jerk reaction to dogs in beds and eating ice cream, so that's a fairly deep seated germ aversion or idea of what constitutes 'unhygienic'

But plenty of people (me included) see a dog sleeping on their bed as normal...

The hygiene line doesn't seem to be something people consciously draw hence me wondering where it comes from

This thread seems to show its an upbringing thing

[LeahJack]

The ‘shoes off’ thing is more to do with people getting wall to wall carpet and it being something quite precious which had to be protected.

People who were used to having carpets and didn’t clean them themselves, or could afford new if need be didn’t.

So shoes off was always a sign of l/m, w/c on the up who treated with great reverence something that was just normal to the W/c

[LeahJack]

Sorry, the U/C

[lottiegarbanzo]

Yes, that makes sense about carpet. I do think 'shoes off' is becoming more prevalent and transcending its class origins though. I find it very common among younger people (20s-40s) who I'd consider middle MC (v. self-assured and not 'aspiring'). Whereas the generation now late 50s-70s, their parents, finds 'shoes off' really odd.

[MargaretCavendish]

I agree with you lottie - I'm in the younger age demographic you describe and almost everyone I know - including some very posh ones - are shoes off people. But I do just find having shoes on uncomfortable - I take mine off at work, if I can - so I hate it when I go to a house where you get urged to leave them on.

[ikeepaforkinmypurse]

the shoes off -shoes on people is more about people wanting a show-house to prove something, with carpets everywhere vs people who'd rather have a life and stick to washable floors, wood or tiles.

I see so many threads and posts from (usually) women desperate to get advice on cleaning a white or light carpet which has been met with make-up, baby food or wine. It sounds exhausting.

People with older houses, or just wooden floor or tiles might have more money and less to prove because they can afford the big houses? WAGS tend to love white carpets, so it seems it's more about class than cash!

[BillywigSting]

I'm not sure about this, both sides of my family are very clean and tidy (apart from my dad). God have mercy on anyone who put fingerprints on my nannas press or my granny's fire place.

On one side my grandad was a sailor. The other one had a castle in co wicklow.

My best friend growing up was very working class and her house as a child was not clean at all. The windows were never open and it smelled of sweat. (her flat now she is an adult is lovely, it was her mum that was is slovenly).

Dps mum is also solidly working class and her hygiene standards are impeccable. Even when they had an enormous boxer dog, you would never know unless you saw her or her bed/toys. No smell or hairs or dried slobber. The dog was kept clean too with regular baths /grooming etc.

[MargaretCavendish]

I am, however, also struggling to think of anyone I know who has carpet downstairs/in living areas. Lots of people I know have ripped it out as the first thing they do upon buying a house/flat.

[Pebblespony]

I find this thread fascinating. I cant imagine having it here in Ireland though. Don't think I've ever had a conversation about class
I'm pretty scruffy, horses and dogs etc make it difficult to keep the place clean and I'm not too bothered. DH is much cleaner, he's from an urban council house. SIL house is immaculate.

[Cliveybaby]

definitely agree it's to do with inherited clutter and country/urban as well!
But "new money" types tend to have immaculate, fancy homes IME.

[SluttyButty]

🤔 so because I have carpets everywhere it means I want a show home and have something to prove? Sadly for you this is not true of me.

[Glovepuppet1]

tenbob

"This thread seems to show its an upbringing thing"

I think you're right - no correlation with class, really, more to do with how one was brought up and one's attitudes towards that. Both my Mum and my MIL are quite houseproud, but in different ways - both influenced by their parents' generation, no doubt, but one was quite well-off and liked "nice" things, while the other was poorer and needed to be more frugal and preserve their belongings.

I prefer tidy and clean-ish, but don't fret abut it - we are busy, and everything needs to be balanced for time.

However, I think as well as upbringing that today's more casual approach to things - the "throw-away society" if you will - has also changed attitudes.

[Tambien]

After some recent threads about how unhygienic people are and how disgusting xxx is, I have to say this thread is a bit of a breath of fresh air.

I’m not british so cannot fit into the different classes as such but I’m finding it interesting that I would still fit the ‘upper Class’ stuff for that too.

[Glovepuppet1]

MargaretCavendish

"I am, however, also struggling to think of anyone I know who has carpet downstairs/in living areas. Lots of people I know have ripped it out as the first thing they do upon buying a house/flat."

I think this is a decorating/fashion trend as much as anything else. Hard floors, when they began to make a resurgence in the late 1990s, were touted as being "healthier" with less capacity for dirt/dust to be trapped in them than with a woven carpet and so better for eg: asthma sufferers.

Not a true reflection of the facts, perhaps, as the dirt/dust was always there with both, but the myth perpetuated on the back of the change in design trends towards hard floors - sellers are always looking for ways to sell more, so if we can't sell you any more of that unhygienic carpet, how about some nice wipe-clean laminate?

Either way, the dirt is still there - it's no more or less easy to clean these things, just different.

And if there was any real health benefit, has the number of asthma sufferers dropped since then? No - the actual causes of asthma are much better known now - air pollution and over-use of antibiotics are the chief culprits.