My noisy kids in restaurants

[MrsMacron]

DH and I are at an utter stalemate on this issue.

We have 2 DS, 4 and 2. DH insists on going to 'fancy' restaurants for evening meals, although this isn't really ideal for the children. I'd prefer lunch times at more family friendly places but I compromise.

I try to avoid screens so I'll pack treats/ crayons/ stickers and chat with them, so although the kids are never loud ie never shout or scream,so they will chat at little kid volume which is higher than adult volume. E.g. Recently DS4 and I were chatting about swapping faces, he found it hilarious for some reason and started giggling loudly and describing his life as my mum.

DH got extremely angry at this lack of manners and stormed out. He feels at a nice restaurant to correct thing is to hand them an iPad each and let them be quiet so as not to disturb other diners.

I think the right thing (if we must go to fancy places) is to teach them to eat at nice restaurants by conversing with them, and diners would rather hear a 4 yo giggle a bit than listen to an entire meal of Peppa Pig, however low the volume.

AIBU? What would you rather hear?

[Teateaandmoretea]

Unless on holiday, where it’s deemed v appropriate to take little ones out in the evening, even if they are asleep in the buggy

What if you are on holiday in the UK is that not acceptable to your rules?

[Puffycat]

Children of 2 & 4 should not be in posh restaurants in the evening, sorry.
We frequently took ours out for lunch and they quickly learned how to behave in public. I think you should get a babysitter if going out for an evening meal.
Unless on holiday, where it’s deemed v appropriate to take little ones out in the evening, even if they are asleep in the buggy

[DrWhy]

Mummyoflittledragon I wasn’t trying to argue that all children could cope with being up that late just trying to counter the pages of people arguing that all small children go to bed at 7pm and will be overtired horrors if they do not.
I never began a routine where he was in bed before 8pm as I knew it wouldn’t be sustainable when I went back to work. He wakes around 7ish although doesn’t have to be up until nearly 8 and he’s a cheery little chap in the daytime so I am assuming that he isn’t suffering. I was rather irritated by the assumption that some people seemed to be making that it was cruel and unreasonable to have a child still out at a restaurant at 7.30pm finishing their meal.
Sleeplikeasloth it sounds like we have basically the same routine going - it’s nice to know that I’m not totally alone in this! It means we can all eat together instead of shoving the previous nights leftovers into the toddler at 6pm and trying to get him to bed then starting cooking for us at 8pm which is the only way we’d ever manage an earlier bedtime.
I’m answer to the OP though - your husband is an arse! Either he goes to nice restaurants, models excellent behaviour, helps to keep your DC quietly occupied and engaged or he goes to ‘family friendly’ restaurants where he can ignore them and the resulting din goes unnoticed - or he can pay for a baby sitter and you can go out as a couple. Throwing a tantrum sounds more unpleasantly disruptive than two small children!

[Teateaandmoretea]

I really don't understand the relevance of 'my dc couldn't cope in restaurants in the evening/ goes to bed at 7pm' etc. It isn't about your dc and they are all different. My nephew wouldn't cope but I don't avoid taking mine out as a result . Parents have their own rules about bedtimes/ different children need different amounts of sleep because everyone is an individual.

[Sleepyblueocean]

SalemBlackCat surely that depends if the only time you spend together as a family is at mealtimes. At weekends we are together all day so we don't need to be communicating for every minute of that time. Also in a place that is likely to give ds sensory overload it is the last thing he needs. Although I am probably doing more actual parenting than any other parent there since ds needs constant watching and supervision.
All those who feel sad etc if they see a child not directly interacting with their parents would feel a lot sadder if they saw the distress if his coping mechanisms were removed.

[Mummyoflittledragon]

Sleeplikeasloth
I get that. Some children are fine with later bedtimes, i imagine it partly depends on the routine parents set out. I didn’t install a 7 pm bedtime because I wanted my evenings. I installed a routine when dd was a couple of months old because we were both struggling badly. Someone suggested Gina Ford and it worked. She went from being all over the place and either getting no sleep or struggling to stay awake to feed to the most contented lo alive. I continued to follow that into her toddler years and it stuck. The routine set means that dd is always up for School so it all worked out in the long run.

[Sleeplikeasloth]

Mummyoflittledragon, it's not like Dr Why is unique here, or saying that all children are OK with this.

We eat on a regular night 6.30ish, and sometimes aren't finished until we'll gone 7. We go out for plenty of evening meals, and it's fine. We change our toddler into night clothes before we leave, they sleep in the car, and we transfer. Usually back by 9-9.30, which is only about an hour later than regular bedtime, and they are fine with this. Children with a slightly later bedtime are much more likely to manage this fine, so you'll find people that tend to take their babies/toddlers out, are ones with later bedtimes generally. Half 8 is about usual bed here, but they also don't wake until gone 8.

No banging, no squealing, no crying, just good natured time together at the restaurant.

I don't think it's rare for little ones to be able to enjoy dinner out, people just don't often do it in the UK.

[PerfectlySymmetricalButtocks]

KERALA It's not too much to ask of any 2 year old. My 2 youngest have been going to the Spaghetti House since they were a few months old. As long as they were fed (or, when they were older, had a sandwich) at their normal suppertime, and kept occupied, they were fine.

[Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar]

You're "understanding" if they're wild, user1489? That's big of you; but you're in a very small minority if seeing and hearing wild children cannoning around the restaurant when you're having dinner doesn't impact on you.
Do you expect everyone else to be equally understanding of your own wild ones? I suspect so...

[rookiemere]

Sitting at a table with your parents shouldn’t be boring, everyone should be chatting and engaging with one another.- you've clearly not met my parents Amazingpostvoices .

I get what you're saying but say if we are on holiday - we've spent all day together, we're eating at a later than normal time and dinner is taking longer, I really can't see the harm in a bit of I-pad use at the end of the meal. As I say its not turned DS into a slack-jawed monster yet and he's 12 now.

[KERALA1]

I see what he's trying to do and if they were 6 and 4 it would be ok but 2 is too young it's too much to ask of any 2 year old. One word - babysitter - you need one!

[Mummyoflittledragon]

DrWhy
If your ds can handle this, it’s obviously because he has a late bed time. Not all children do. He must also be pretty placid. Dd used to go to bed 7 at that age. No way could she have handled 6.30 dinner. My friend couldn’t have taken her ds out that late until he was at least 7 years old. He would have had a complete melt down. Most little kids want to run around. My dd never stopped and still has far more energy than any of her friends. Taking her to a restaurant was a fast and rare affair. All children are different and just because your ds can handle this, don’t assume others are being unreasonable by saying their kids can’t.

[DrWhy]

Wow, I’m so glad Mumsnet doesn’t reflect the reality of life where I live (still UK)!
We go out pretty frequently with our toddler to non-chain restaurants. Not super fancy places with no prices on the menu but local independent restaurants. He’s 20 months now but we’ve always done it, especially when family are visiting. On a regular night DS eats at around 6.30 pm and is in bed around 8.30pm - we don’t get home from work until close to 6 so it is never going to be the 5pm dinner and 7pm bed that seems to be the approved child bedtime! So if we sit down at 6 he has his dinner at normal time, if we sit at 6.30 it’s no more than half an hour late. He is changed into his PJs at the end of dinner, falls asleep in the car on the way home and is transferred to his cot.
We have never given him a tablet, he has an endless supply of both his and our food to try, colouring pencils and paper, a magnadoodle, water colouring book, sometimes a duplo car, dinosaur etc. We do talk to him and he chats back in his own way, he’s absolutely not allowed to shout or bang cutlery and if he does whoever is closest to finished will take him out for a walk around outside.
The waiting staff tend to be lovely and he’s been given various treats as a previous poster mentioned.
We did accidentally end up taking him for a genuinely posh dinner this weekend as we were staying at a rather nice hotel and decided to eat there. The restaurant opened at 6.30 so we were still there when couples started arriving for their date nights and I did feel a bit awkward but he wasn’t disruptive and we didn’t linger at the end of dinner. It actually reminded DH and I how much we enjoyed that kind of excellent food and we have resolved to get a baby sitter no go somewhere properly nice together again before the next one arrives!

[FreshHorizons]

It is massively better in continental Europe because parents talk to them , get them to behave appropriately and don't have iPads at the table. Here we have parents who don't bring up their children to behave differently according to the circumstances then expect other people to be child friendly however irritating the child. In continental Europe strangers can be friendly to the child- here they are supposed to admire from a distance!

[FreshHorizons]

Get a babysitter and go out on your own.
If you do take them on no account have them using screens at the table. It will be hard work - talk to them , amuse them and keep them from annoying other diners.

[user1489434024]

Isn’t this need to exclude the young from restaurants ageist? What if it were someone who differs from you in colour, creed or sexuality? That would make you racist or homophobic, for example.

If the restaurant allows children then suck it up or find somewhere else. It’s lovely to see children enjoying themselves and I’m sympathetic when they tantrum or understanding if they’re wild.

[Teateaandmoretea]

It really is something that is massively better in continental Europe.

[Teateaandmoretea]

Children have as much right to eat as adults. Children have equal right to disturb other diners as adults (and generally it's drunk adults who are a pita in restaurants in the evenings not kids ime). I avoid pizza express because people don't control their children and it makes it harder to control your own. That said, I wouldn't take them somewhere really fancy as they wouldn't enjoy it and when they were very tiny we had a few places we would go. They also like to leave the second they've finished eating which has a negative impact on my dinner experience if I was paying a lot.

My DC have for some reason always been amazingly well behaved in restaurants (I'm not bragging they aren't amazingly well behaved everywhere else but fundamentally they like eating). I don't like seeing miserable people out for dinner, it puts me off my food and they should stay at home/ only go out for lunch.

Zero sound from Ipads though - no one wants to listen to Peppa pig (including me).

I think you are both bu tbh, 2 is a bit young for in depth dinner conversations but your DH storming off was

[Mummyoflittledragon]

glowering at them for perceived ‘bad manners’

The only one with bad manners appears to be your ‘d’h. Does he think storming out is the behaviour of an adult?

He is inconsiderate to other diners and horrible to both you and your children. Seems like he’s the only one, who matters. Vile behaviour.

Does he have any redeeming qualities or is he all over controlling?

[mathanxiety]

I think he is actually setting everyone up to fail here, as a pp remarked.

I suspect he would consider a family friendly place to be beneath him.

[nursy1]

It sounds like your DH has an idealised picture of you all eating out together. Of course, in real life it’s not like that hence him losing it. Point that out to him.
Went to Gustos the other week ( is this a local chain, I’m not sure). The food and service was pretty high end but I noticed a few tables with kids. They were all entertained by being taken off to make their own pizzas. Can’t you go some where like that? It’s asking a lot to make small children behave and sit still through a full restaurant meal. If DH solution is for them to be on the iPads I’d say, what’s the point?

[Monty27]

People pay for sitters so they can go out and get some time together. They shouldn't have to deal with the noise of other PPS DC's. Especially if it's a 'fancy' restaurant. I can't imagine a fancy restaurant supplying crayons and stuff to be fair but we all have different tastes.
Frankly I would be fuming.

[SalemBlackCat]

I don't agree with giving children that young mobiles or iPads full stop. However, I especially don't agree with giving them to them during meal times. I think that sets very very bad examples and antisocial meal habits. Families should be eating together and talking together, not with their head in a book or tablet or whatever. That is why families no longer communicate anymore. We have become a dysfunctional society where we palm our social interactions off with an ipad or mobile. We wonder why then that children are antisocial. No books, no iphones, ipads, mobiles, nothing should be allowed at the dinner table.

I also think that not only should children not be up at 7pm, but that it is far, far, FAR too young to take a 4 year old and a 2 year old to a restaurant. Whether it be for lunch or dinner. Most people normally get babysitters when they are going to a restaurant. Is there any reason why you can't get a babysitter? I'd say around 8 years old or 10 years old is an appropriate age to start introducing them to restaurants, but certainly not 4 or 2 years old. That is far too young, they have no need to be at restaurants and have no place in restaurants. Hire a babysitter or leave going out to restaurants until they are considerably older.

[AmazingPostVoices]

’m not saying it’s super parenting, but when I was a DC and out with my parents I would always bring a book for when I got bored - ipad is just the modern equivalent of that

A book at the table isn’t good manners either.

Sitting at a table with your parents shouldn’t be boring, everyone should be chatting and engaging with one another.