A man who has a photo of you in bed with him is entitled to sex

[Bananamanfan]

AIBU in thinking the reporting of this story is totally irresponsible given the low reporting of rapes by victims.
The BBC are harping on about this FFS! It all perpetuates the myth that false accusations of rape are at epidemic proportions. I really think we are travelling backwards through time at the moment.

[RidingWindhorses]

However, I think that the photos or other evidence like this need to go to court so that the judge and jury may decide. It should not be up to the police to screen evidence, even if they fear it may not be seen 'in the right light'. Otherwise we end up where we are not and with doubt being cast on so many other rape convictions.

Except that in this case the police say they didn't find it, so it wasn't a question of screening evidence. It's quite possible they didn't as they're massively underfunded and sex offence cases are not necessarily a top priory. They certainly weren't in my borough according to a recent IPCC investigation.

Sometimes police withhold evidence because they just want to get a conviction. But at the same time due to the unfortunate power of rape myths prevalent in society - including juries and the judiciary - I can see why police may be tempted to withhold evidence that doesn't disprove a case but may prejudice a jury against the complainant. However it's entirely counterproductive as an assiduous defence team will likely find it.

[Firesuit]

So 'not guilty' then?

I think I could convict someone, with possibly not even a higher threshold of evidence that the average juror. That's necessary for justice to work. I think I probably just use less definite words to describe that level of certainty.

I think there are intelligent people for whom there is no mental distinction between reality and what they believe, and who would be nonplussed at the very idea of making a distinction. For me, reality is an intrinsically unknowable thing "out there", distinct from the imperfect representation in my brain, that is all I know. Those people are certain of everything, I'm certain of nothing, but we probably make similar decisions in similar circumstances, most of the time.

I suppose my argument in favour of being wishy-washy is that it leaves your mind more open to change.


My algorithm in processing something like this rape news story starts with asking why I need to come to a conclusion. Since I'm not the police, prosecutor or juror, I don't, therefore file the story under inconclusive, along with 99.9% of all other information I encounter that doesn't affect any immediate decision I need to make.

[unplugmefromthematrix]

Patriarchy we pay for all this court and jury time - in the interests of justice. If we value it, then we have to pay for it.

It is the police's job to gather evidence and evaluate it so they can determine if a crime has been committed and who the evidence suggests is likely to be responsible. If there is concrete proof of an alibi for example so the suspect is not pursued, then that is not what I meant by 'screening evidence' = selectively providing or selectively disclosing evidence; it is presenting the gathered evidence and the evidence speaking for itself and there for anyone to see. There is a vast difference between evaluation and deliberately holding evidence back so a person cannot use it for their defence or to prove their case. .

The photos are not conclusive proof of his innocence or guilt of rape, and as you say we don't know the full details so it sounds like the photos should have been disclosed so they could be evaluated in court where the jury (and judge) could hear an explanation from both sides and take a view. If the discovery of the photos undermined the accuser's story so much so that it made her sound as if she were lying then that is another matter, but she should be questioned about it. And this can also be evaluated in court if there is any doubt.

Perhaps it is also the case that the mishandling by the police made them look unreliable and untrustworthy so the prosecution did not then go ahead for those reasons.

The senior CPS/ police person speaking on Radio 4 said that they do not routinely delve very deeply into people's lives. That sounds very worrying to me. We should be funding the police so that they can do their job properly.

I don't think we have anywhere near enough substantial detail to make informed decsions on who did or didn't do what, including police incompetence or wrongdoing, and that really worries me.

[PatriarchyPersonified]

unplugmefromthematrix

However, I think that the photos or other evidence like this need to go to court so that the judge and jury may decide. It should not be up to the police to screen evidence, even if they fear it may not be seen 'in the right light'. Otherwise we end up where we are not and with doubt being cast on so many other rape convictions.

Who is paying for all this court and jury time? Of course the Police and the CPS have to screen evidence, its literally part of their job. If they didn't then every single spurious case that could easily be disproved would have to go through the rigmarole of going to court.

The issue here is that its hard to believe that the Police and CPS looked at his phone, downloaded all his information and texts etc but didn't see the photos of him and his accuser taken on the day of the alleged rape. We don't know the full details but it certainly sounds like critical evidence that appears to cast serious doubts on the accuser's side of the story was completely missed by the Police and CPS.

The very best reason for this sheer incompetence, the worst reason is that it was a deliberate attempt to suppress evidence in order to secure the conviction of an innocent man.

[unplugmefromthematrix]

RidingWindHorses that Gurdian account is very interesting.

I would agree that photos of them in bed do not automatically undermine anything in that account - if you had just been raped and the man wa aggressive and not letting you leave, you would really have little choice whether participate in taking a photo. You would proabably do whatever he wanted to appease him and keep yourself safe. We do not know if that was what she said happened though.

However, I think that the photos or other evidence like this need to go to court so that the judge and jury may decide. It should not be up to the police to screen evidence, even if they fear it may not be seen 'in the right light'. Otherwise we end up where we are not and with doubt being cast on so many other rape convictions.

[unplugmefromthematrix]

I have seen some reporting on this on the Victoria Derbyshire show, and whilst I imagine that the crux is that the photos undermine her account in some specific way (eg she said they had never been to bed), I do think that the reporting needs to spell the issues out more clearly because they are leaving it very muddy. And I do feel that it might lead to victims not coming forward.

I have been really disappointed that the arguments have not been more articulate and detailed. Too many brief segments with poorly chosen speakers I think.

Also it concerned me that a speaker on Radio 4 yest from the DPS I think, said that they do not routinely go through phones/ photos, or "every aspect of your life" just in case as it is an invasion of privacy - seems like a dangerous lack of funding and effort to me, and should be worrying for defendent and accused to have such superficial investigating.

[Rufustherenegadereindeer1]

yes

Oh ok

Yep i think i get that

Thanks

[Redpony1]

Someone i have the displeasure of knowing was convicted of a false rape claim last year, she was sentenced to 5 years in prison (she deserves 20 for all the stuff she has done to myself & other people!)
I believe more and more of this will happen.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-41692026

[x2boys]

I think it raises more questions about the CPS and the police not disclosing relevant evidence tbh I have no idea wether she was telling the truth or not , my dh was charged with assault the police seized two ripped shirts from my house that the person he was supposed to have assaulted ripped mine and dh shirts whilst we wearing them , my dh defence reapetedly asked for them from the CPS and they ignored all requests as presumably it would undermine their case the case was resolved prior to trial but I don't trust the police or the CPS anymore .

[NeedsAsockamnesty]

People talk about it all the time.
Society often appears to be very quick to believe the alledged victim in a rape case is lying

[Basecamp21]

Many years ago I was raped

3 years ago my daughter got convicted of a crime she did not commit.

I can say with all honestly I would rather be raped a thousand times than see an innocent person convicted again. She was a teacher and will never work in that field again. she had to fight to keep her children from being taken into care and ended up having a complete mental breakdown. She is now a shadow of who she was before and both her and her 8 year old son have been diagnosed with acute PTSD. I sat and watched one day as we heard sirens in the background probably an ambulance and she collapsed in a corner and wet herself. Hers was not a major crime and she got community service but thought for a while she was going to prison - out of the 9 co-d's in her direct case (drug related)all were convicted and 2 were completely innocent, 1 was only loosely connected.

Wrongful convictions ruin lives more than the vast majority of crimes ever do. But in the eyes of society she is a convicted criminal and deserves everything that she gets.

But no one ever talks about this - if this gentlemen was completely innocent he will probably never recover from this.

[Rufustherenegadereindeer1]

individually separate and distinct

I think numbers should stay separate

Its when there is lots of them that i get confused

Its almost as if they are ganging up on me

[Rufustherenegadereindeer1]

Whats discrete maths

Make it a really really simple explanation please

[RidingWindhorses]

independent download not automatic download^^

[RidingWindhorses]

In this case there are two possible explanations - that the photo genuinely undermined her version of events, or that it didn’t but the CPS took a pessimistic view of the effect it would have on the jury’s attitude. We’ll probably never know which is correct, so it’s not a good case to have a feminist rage about because there is a plausible alternative explanation.

According to the Guardian account, the police didn't find the images. It was only when the defence commissioned an automatic download that the images were found.

Of course the police may be lying. They may have seen the pics, known that they didn't disprove the case but feared that they would prejudice the jury, and so withheld them.

But they may genuinely have missed them. Police are currently very underesourced.

[RidingWindhorses]

www.theguardian.com/law/2018/jan/15/london-rape-trial-collapses-after-phone-images-undermine-case

[Rufustherenegadereindeer1]

that the photo genuinely undermined her version of events, or that it didn’t but the CPS took a pessimistic view of the effect it would have on the jury’s attitude.

You have no idea which of the above is correct patriarchy

[RidingWindhorses]

This, from the Guardian article on the case sheds more light on the matter:

The pair were said to have taken a taxi back to Makele’s flat in Hackney where they had sex and the woman stayed the night. The next day she went to the police and alleged that Makele had raped her and prevented her from leaving his flat. She said she only managed to escape after he fell asleep.

Makele consistently denied the charge and said sex with the woman had been consensual. The CPS subsequently told Makele’s solicitor, Paris Theodorou, of the London law firm Hodge Jones & Allen, that apart from text messages showing contact between the two after the event there was nothing else of interest on the phone that needed to be disclosed.

When the phone was eventually returned to Makele, Theodorou commissioned an independent download of the phone’s contents and discovered more than a dozen photographs showing the pair apparently cuddling in bed together.

They undermined the prosecution’s version of events, suggesting that the relationship appeared to be consensual. Theodorou then served the CPS with the images that had been missed.

In court a barrister for the CPS said the prosecution was also being dropped because of another issue that had raised doubts about the credibility of the complainant.

However, what is reported here doesn't rule out the possibilty of a consensual encounter that turned non-consensual. The photos in themselves prove nothing. It's perfectly possible she went to bed with him consensually, took pics, then he turned aggressive, raped her and wouldn't let her leave.

I don't know what the other 'issue' was that also undermined the credibility of the complainant - it could be something serious, but equally it could have been inconsistencies, alcohol consumption, mental health problems, prior rape complaint etc.

[Rufustherenegadereindeer1]

Thanks yes

I tie myself up in knots trying to explain myself on here

waggy

I am not sure that many (if any) of us are speculating as to his guilt....but you are speculating about hers

[Firesuit]

Because in most rape cases one of the parties is lying. You can't believe both. To believe the accused (as we both agree we should) is innocent, it is absolutely impossible to also believe the accuser.

I wonder if you're a lawyer, as I find them often very black and white in their thinking, always absolutely certain of something, or if not that, then it's exact opposite.

In a rape case, I'm quite happy to have no firm belief at all about what happened. That would be true even if I were on the jury and heard all the evidence and it was my duty to have the most accurate possible opinion of what happened.

[LadyIsabellaWrotham]

In this case there are two possible explanations - that the photo genuinely undermined her version of events, or that it didn’t but the CPS took a pessimistic view of the effect it would have on the jury’s attitude. We’ll probably never know which is correct, so it’s not a good case to have a feminist rage about because there is a plausible alternative explanation.

[RidingWindhorses]

I think all women know that it's perfectly possible to be smiling and cuddling someone who then goes on to rape you.

But the chances of a jury convicting for rape beyond reasonable doubt when there is evidence of the victim and alleged rapist smiling in bed together is absolutely nil, so cps (procurator fiscal in Scotland) won't waste court time with it.

Absolutely.

[PatriarchyPersonified]

Lonny

The fact that a photo of the accused and the accuser in bed together so undermined the CPS's case that they could offer no further evidence of any kind, would imply that her story fundamentally didn't tally with that photo being taken. It's not like they submitted a statement from her that she went with him willingly and it then later became non-consensual. If that was the case then the photo wouldn't have undermined their case so fundamentally.

We don't know if it was a false or malicious allegation, but that one photo alone undermining their entire case doesn't exactly look good.