Posting for traffic - the rights of British citizens in EU countries.

[HelloPossums]

Hi everyone,

I hope you don't mind but I'm posting for traffic here. I've just got a question about the rights of British citizens in EU countries after Brexit is finally put into place.

I read a Guardian article this morning, which explains that British citizens in EU countries will be in a worse position than EU citizens in Britain when Britain leaves the European Union.

The article is here: www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/11/the-brexit-trap-thats-closing-on-britons-who-live-in-europe

I would really like to move to France (sooner rather than later, if possible). My (very loose) plan is that if I do move to France, I would stay there for 5 years at least. I would then apply for dual citizenship of France and Britain. I feel that dual citizenship would give me a decent amount of rights in both the UK and France.

I understand that British citizens living in other EU countries have not applied for citizenship in their countries of residence for lots of different reasons.

However, my question is: won't living in an EU country and then applying for dual citizenship (which would keeping British citizenship and acquiring the citizenship of an EU country) be very helpful in the coming years?

[scaryteacher]

n0ne I find Flemish hard...eek indeed with language exams!!

[user1491148352]

On the double nationality point, they can indeed make it a condition of acquiring the second nationality. This requires you to sign a paper saying you have done so and possibly hand over your UK passport.

BUT the UK sees the relinquishment as having been made under duress and does not recognise it. So you can re-apply for a UK passport.

You lose nothing by doing this as you are not entitled to UK consular protection in the country of your second citizenship anyway.

[Mistigri]

Declaring you renounce it and actually renouncing it are two different things though. I wonder if they require written proof of renunciation?

We were asked when the kids took their second nationality whether they would be renouncing another nationality or not. But it was clearly a box-ticking exercise with no paperwork required.

[daisypond]

Yes, some countries do make you give up UK nationality if you want and are entitled to citizenship in their country - Spain, for example:

"However, once you have acquired Spanish citizenship you must declare that you renounce your prior citizenship, unless your case is one where you are entitled to dual citizenship. This includes Latin American countries and others such as Andorra, the Philippines, Equatorial Guinea and Portugal. It is possible to have two nationalities, if your existing country does not allow citizens to renounce their citizenship (e.g. the UK)."

from: www.expatica.com/es/essentials_moving_to/essentials/How-to-become-a-Spanish-national_18245.html

[user1493022461]

but I doubt they can legally make you give up UK nationality as that is a matter for the UK authorities alone

They can make it a condition of getting the new nationality.

[Mistigri]

I know some countries don't recognise double nationality, but I doubt they can legally make you give up UK nationality as that is a matter for the UK authorities alone.

[n0ne]

Not every EU country lets you have dual nationality. I live in the Netherlands, and you can't have dual nationality here unless you're married to a Dutch person (which I am, fortunately). I'm waiting for the fallout of Brexit before I decide what to do about applying for nationality. I could apply now but it's a long, expensive process (and you have to pass language exams - eek!). I'm hoping that, as part of the Brexit deal, they might make a cheaper, fast-track option for people who've lived here x-amount of years paying taxes etc. Or people with ties here (Dutch spouses, kids).

I have friends here who aren't married to Dutchies, and I could understand if they didn't want to become Dutch as they'll have to give up their British nationality. I'd hate that, personally.

[FlindersKeepers]

Not all INGOs are in Switzerland, as I wrote, UNESCO is in Paris and there's a fair few others dotted around France or which have French offices (e.g. ILO).
There are jobs available for people who have direct working experience (like your friends Babypassport ) or skills in addition to languages.
The number of lifetime contracts - which permanent INGO contracts are, however, is very limited.

[Starduke]

I did a business masters in France (Ecole Supérieure de Commerce). This meant I could be naturalised quicker :

*Durée minimum de résidence
Vous devez justifier d'une résidence habituelle en France pendant les 5 années qui précèdent le dépôt de votre demande.

La durée de résidence habituelle en France est réduite à 2 ans dans les cas suivants :

-vous avez accompli avec succès 2 années d'études en vue de l'obtention d'un diplôme délivré par un établissement d'enseignement supérieur français,

• vous contribuez au rayonnement de la France,
  
• vous présentez un parcours exceptionnel d'intégration (activités ou actions accomplies dans les domaines civique, scientifique, économique, culturel ou sportif).*
  

I did my degree (French & German) in the UK - so Bac+3. Then I went to a business school for 2 years (usually it's 3 but I joined the 2nd year as I had a bac+3) and got my bac+5.

It is a lot easier getting a job in France with a bac+5.

I got my naturalisation no problem - no French test (other than the usual interview), and as I was married to Frenchman, had French son and had studied and worked in France I got given it really easily. I had prepared a speech but didn't even need it!

[ChasedByBees]

OP if you do move, I would take legal advice on wills. The inheritance laws are quite different in France and were you to die in France, this could cause issues if there are wishes incompatible with French law for example. Sorry, I know that's morbid but this can catch people out.

[Babypassport]

flinderskeepers, lots of really good points! OP, I didn't mean to imply that you would be welcomed with open arms simply due to your language degree, though of course it's a solid foundation.

I don't think it's incredibly difficult to get work at the UN or the NGOs though - four of my friends work there, two of whom found employment there through work placements at their masters degrees. These people do work incredibly hard and had a certain amount of good fortune to get the jobs, but these jobs are certainly available!

It's all academic though if you don't want to work in Switzerland!

[user1493022461]

I know it ain't France.... but I have a feeling that ROI will have special rules regarding British residents and EU membership

What kind of special relationship are you imagining?

[FlindersKeepers]

Jobs at the UN are not easy to find - it is important to remember that having the language ability is great, but not the only job requirement. Otherwise most of Switzerland and several other countries would never have to go through recruitment!
The UN has many different agencies, including UNESCO which is based in Paris, so it is worth not only looking at HQ. It is also worth considering other International Non-Governmental Organizations as even after Brexit, you are covered by the relevant seat agreement so do not have to get permanent residency or take on an additional citizenship. Depending on the INGO, you may even qualify for diplomatic (CD) or International Organization (IO) status and be able to get special local ID which may still allow visa-free travel. CD & IO staff are also considered Crown Servants and thus keep U.K. voting rights even after 15 years away.
But you need more than languages to get a job with one, whether translation qualifications, significant work experience in a related role, engineering qualifications, legal qualifications... whatever the job requires.
Taking agency work at such an employer may be a way in, but permanent roles are decreasing in the sector. The languages required may differ depending on the organization too.
Good luck!

[Babypassport]

I taught on a master's course and it seemed to be a good way into a decent job. Have you thought about basing yourself near Geneva instead of Paris? That way you'll be near the UN and with your languages I'm sure you'd be interesting to them.

[susanboozan]

I know it ain't France.... but I have a feeling that ROI will have special rules regarding British residents and EU membership.

It is only a feeling, but judging by the "special relationship" between the two countries going back donkeys years, it might be worth considering.

I realise you don't have access to an Irish passport, but what I am trying to say (badly) is that once you are here, you may not be kicked out as quickly as other countries, and the rules for Irish citizenship are on the web.

Just a thought.

Best of luck.

[Wormulonian]

If you have an Irish parent or grandparent (including Northern Irish at the moment) you could apply for an Irish passport - that would give you an EU passport/rights

[Mistigri]

Start by having a look at th Onisep website: www.onisep.fr/Choisir-mes-etudes/Apres-le-bac

[HelloPossums]

I definitely would be interested in studying for a Master's in France. I could be wrong, but I've heard that Master's courses are less expensive in France (and elsewhere in Europe) in the U.K.? Does anyone know if this is the case?

In terms of work, I'm very interested in careers in broadcasting, as well as careers in government and in the charity sector. I realise that all of these areas are fairly unrelated though!

I'd be very keen to find a Master's that would help me develop skills in one of these areas and that would lead onto a good career.

If anyone has done a Master's in France, it would be great to hear from you! :)

[Mistigri]

Would you consider doing a masters in France? I would say that in the French job market it is tough with just a first degree (Bac +3), and that most "good" jobs will be recruiting at bac+5.

[HelloPossums]

Thanks Babypassport - you've hit the nail on the head there when you ask how I'd feel if I stayed in the UK and didn't try to make a go of moving to France. I know I'd massively regret not trying to move to France, at least, and I would really love to have a go just to say that I've tried.

I think what's stopping me from even making a go of moving to France is my job circumstances. I'm a fairly recent graduate (2015) and I'm looking for entry-level jobs in the U.K. right now. I would like to apply for similar jobs in France as well because, if I do move to France, I would like to have a job with relatively good career progression. I would rather aim for that than to be in a position where I find work in France but I'm working in a job that doesn't 'lead anywhere', if you see what I mean.

If anyone might have any advice about job-hunting in France (especially in Paris) for graduates looking for entry-level work, I'd be really interested to hear from you please :)

[Babypassport]

I have lived in France for 6 years and am just starting the process of applying for citizenship. It's been quite turbulent recently, between Brexit and Le Pen, but I'm feeling hopeful now that it'll all turn out okay.

You sound really keen to live here so just go for it! How would you feel if you decided to stay in the UK just in case France didn't work out, only to realise in five years from now that you would have had enough time?

As for the article, I think I'm missing something crucial or its just not a story. Basically they're saying that after Brexit they would be allowed to stay in Germany or whichever country they live in - which frankly is the main thing - but wouldn't be allowed to travel elsewhere in Europe. No British people would be able to do it, thanks to the storm of muppets who voted to leave the EU, and being an expat doesn't give anyone extra whining rights.

[HelloPossums]

Thanks Lord :) That's interesting about the possibility of getting hold of a work visa through an employer in France in the future. That sounds really promising.

[LordRothermereBlackshirtCunt]

It sounds like you're pretty employable, OP. If you were to get a job in France and things did go badly in negotiations, presumably the most likely​ outcome is that your employer would help you to get the necessary work visa?

[Mistigri]

Re recruitment, definitely. My employers' graduate programme prioritises science graduates with two languages.

If your situation permits, you should consider moving. It won't be the EU that prevents you from remaining in Europe - their position is that all EU citizens exercising FoM must have their rights maintained indefinitely and this of course includes Britons in the EU. It is the UK government that is back-pedalling on this.

[HelloPossums]

Mistigri thanks so much for your posts.

I'd like to move to France in particular because I have a degree in French (and Spanish). I lived and worked in France during my gap year and my year abroad at university. I really miss not being in France, although I have to say that I do hear quite a lot of French on a daily basis, as I'm living in London at the moment, so that's quite nice.

On a complete side-note, although I have continued to use French every day since graduation in some form or other, I also think that experience of living and working in France (or any EU country), along with a very good knowledge of an EU language, will be more and more attractive to British employers who need staff who are proficient in EU languages over the years to come.