To think that we no longer live in a democracy

[applecatchers36]

Just read this article and found it chilling, that our data is being mined from Facebook, Non UK citizens/ nations ( am looking at you USA and Russia) have interfered in supposedly democratic elections. Why isn't this being challenged legally as criminal behaviour? Treason? Election fraud?

[Twooter]

I certainly feel Scotland has its own dictator.

[Valentine2]

It's terrifying and even more so when you realise that the public is generally refusing to even think of it.
I sometimes wonder if we are actually in the middle of a historic decline.

[thunderbrat]

I'm sure most of our brains haven't been hacked - although all have the potential to be (and probably will be, at some point). The point in this is about the subtle manoeuvring of those at the margins - those who can be swayed (cf point about neurotics) to one side or the other. In the cases in the article, it's about the power/money of the right - but behavioural analytics could just as easily be used to influence people to move left. It's more about whether this is an acceptable form of political influence than it is where your instinctive politics are on the left-right/remain-leave spectrum, for me.

[Valentine2]

One thing I really don't understand about this is the motivation behind it. I can understand why Putin/Russia would want Trump in power (although I think he's proving to a bit of a loose cannon for them) and the collapse of the EU. But the people behind Brexit, I don't really understand what they would gain from Brexit/the collapse of the EU, and why they would want that.

That can generate many a PhD dissertations I think.
A general theme, though cliche I know, is to follow the money and power trail.

[Valentine2]

In the cases in the article, it's about the power/money of the right - but behavioural analytics could just as easily be used to influence people to move left. It's more about whether this is an acceptable form of political influence than it is where your instinctive politics are on the left-right/remain-leave spectrum, for me.

That's very naive and dangerously close to indifference. Sorry but I don't think left/right is all that's at stake now.
It is about keeping democracy relevant to people. (The last time I checked, Daily Fail hadn't put up a request for funding on their site. Guardian did.)

[SleepOhHowIMissYou]

Oh my brain was hacked alright, and all my "clever and artistic" friends were voting remain, so I voted remain. I didn't dare do otherwise, all the terrible, terrible things that were going to happen if we left Europe.

I think the European Union is corrupt and failing, yet I still voted to stay. You can spin left, you can spin right, fear and the unknown motivated my vote, but it seems the "vote remain" manipulation was for our own good, it's only voter corruption when you get the "wrong" result.

[jellyfrizz]

It's more about whether this is an acceptable form of political influence than it is where your instinctive politics are on the left-right/remain-leave spectrum, for me.

I agree with this, would be powers have always tried to influence voters.

I think what is an issue is the point about funding and where (& why) that funding is coming from.

"Moore contributed to an LSE report published in April that concluded UK’s electoral laws were “weak and helpless” in the face of new forms of digital campaigning. Offshore companies, money poured into databases, unfettered third parties… the caps on spending had come off. The laws that had always underpinned Britain’s electoral laws were no longer fit for purpose."

[jellyfrizz]

I was listening to Farage on the daily mail of the airwaves (LBC) about a month ago, he was pimping direct democracy - as in we should have more referendums for political decisions.

That would be very useful if you've found a reliable way of influencing voters to vote the way you want.

[TeamRick]

Because Putin hates the EU! He sees it unifying Countries together, the 'soft' benefits of workers and human rights are a bigger threat to Russia than military force!
He can see the Eastern European Countries joining the EU, standards of living improving, etc etc and he's scared that will spread in to Russia!
That's why he's moved in to Ukraine, he feels threatened & undermined!
Good enough motivation to try & put a stop to it?

[thunderbrat]

Valentine - I was trying to say exactly that - that it's about a lot more then left- right etc now. Perhaps not put clearly enough.

Sleep - maybe there has been non-advertised behavioural analytics-led campaigning to persuade people to remain, but the article talks about the alt-right funded leave messaging. I haven't seen anything which suggests the remain campaign used this (although it may be out there). It's not about traditional campaigning - both sides did this publicly. It's about unattributed social media messaging which is not obviously promoted as campaign focused, but nevertheless is aimed at behaviour (ballot box) change - not only getting people to switch sides, but also subtly persuading people not to vote if they are on the 'wrong' side.

[Valentine2]

That would be very useful if you've found a reliable way of influencing voters to vote the way you want.

You can always count on Farage to prositutue his very being to sell stuff for his masters.

thunderbrat
Sorry. I am rather sleepy

[thunderbrat]

Jelly - agree with the point about funding, but it's also about the insidiousness of it - the lack of obvious attribution in terms of where the messages are coming from. It's a lot easier to ignore something if it obviously comes from a party/side with which you disagree.

[thunderbrat]

Valentine, no problem, me too!

[caroldecker]

The problem with the Brexit referendum was that (a) it should never have been the subject of a referendum because it is far too complex for people to understand
Why do Remain voters tend to post this to support they were right? If it is too complex, then they have no clue whether they were right to vote remain.

[SleepOhHowIMissYou]

Adam Curtis' documentary "HyperNormalisation" is worth a look (it's on BBC iPlayer). Sadly, this is nothing new.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperNormalisation

[fakenamefornow]

To the people dismissing this and calling people 'tin hat' wearers, this is not a criticism of how you voted or some sort of sneer about your intelligence, we are all vulnerable to this sort of manipulation.

[LiviaDrusillaAugusta]

Not sure how I'm 'shrieking' Squoosh but you crack on

[LurkingHusband]

Someone elsewhere made an interesting point in the event we revisit fox hunting.

Why would that get another vote ? Surely "the people have spoken" ?

[Valentine2]

Why do Remain voters tend to post this to support they were right? If it is too complex, then they have no clue whether they were right to vote remain.

Because when things are this murky, you are nearly always better off to err on the safer side. The side that you know rather than the unknown for which a million useless academics/experts/economists have been warning constantly

[Valentine2]

Why would that get another vote ? Surely "the people have spoken"

[MephistophelesApprentice]

It's just data gathering to help plan a political campaign, like democratic politicians have done forever.

It's better, because instead of saying "black people vote for X, women vote for Y" it produces more accurate data and allows for more personalised approach.

I'm still unclear why this is a bad thing. If Jeremy Corbyn was using it, left wingers would think it was great and the Telegraph would be writing about the terrifying manipulation of democracy by the hard left.

[ClarkWGriswold]

YABU. We live in a democracy. The problem with a democracy is that ignorant and uneducated people's votes count just as much as those who have actually an idea what they are voting for.

Would you prefer that we go back to the days of only gentrified landowners being allowed to vote?

[Valentine2]

Would you prefer that we go back to the days of only gentrified landowners being allowed to vote?
I think they are trying to say that it is an inherent flaw being used against the people themselves by the powerful people who can.

[strugglinghuman]

Utter shit.

The threats to democracy are the people who cook up and/or disseminate this bollocks to try and fiddle the system after people have voted a way they don't like.

Everyone can see this, you are fooling nobody but yourselves, and you are playing with fire trying to get rid of democracy.

[strugglinghuman]

The problem with a democracy is that ignorant and uneducated people's votes count just as much as those who have actually an idea what they are voting for.

This discussion was had already. Your "flaw" is exactly the one that was defeated and debunked, and was described on record as being wrong, for women and lower class men to get the vote. In the debating halls, in parliament, at protests, in the family home, in the workplace and in the trenches and battlefields of conscripted soldiery people whose sacrifices did not require an exam or an IQ test, people who suffer the consequences of the country's decisions, won the vote.

Let's leave this revolting "the little people shouldn't vote" reasoning in the 19th century where it belongs.