To think that nursery must drug a room full of under 2s to get them to sit nicely and cooperate?

[Bubspub]

Obviously the title is in jest! I don't suspect that my nursery is drugging the children, they are an excellent nursery of very lovely staff. I took DS 21mo in slightly later than usual this morning and 'sing and sign' had begun. I stood there open mouthed. I kid you not, a room full of under 2s sat in perfect, straight rows, listening attentively to nursery nurse singing and signing. HOW DO THEY GET THEM TO DO THAT??! I am seriously impressed. I also assume that my DS went to join them and behaved this way. HE WOULD NEVER DO THIS AT HOME! Am I the only person whose child is a complete hooligan at home but get reports that "he's been an absolute star" when I pick him up and they have told me very clearly that they have no concerns about his attention and behaviour? I'm baffled but impressed at the same time! And open to the suggestion that it's because of my crap parenting!

[TiggyD]

Although if I had known parents were fine with the use of magic, tasers, and drugs, my work life would have been far easier.

[Bubspub]

Expectations are really important for sure. I'm trying to reverse the crap parenting I've done up to now, because it's got to the point where DH and I have had enough of it. He throws huge tantrums every time we go out for a walk when I won't let him play in the road I set the expectation up before we left the house, if you're naughty we're coming back home. I kept reinforcing that when I thought he was about to kick off, huge pet lips but less screaming and throwing self down. It all ended in a big tantrum anyway as then he didn't want to return home, but not as bad as before. I'm putting my foot down now, he has had the run of us! Now I know that he can be an angel at nursery, I know he's capable of good behaviour and that's what I'm expecting

[pickletray]

Witchcraft. My toddler takes himself off and lies on the mat for a nap when he's tired. I nearly choked when they told me that.

[SnugglySnerd]

Bubs from reading your last post it sounds a little bit like you are almost expecting him to be naughty/tantrum and kind of putting the idea in his head. Try turning it into a positive so instead of "if you are naughty..." try "if you walk nicely with mummy..." and make sure you keep praising him when he does it well.

Sorry I don't want to interfere, I also have a toddler who naps at nursery but not at home but basically all kids want to please you.
I teach teenagers and they are not much different from toddlers in many ways. If you have clear expectations, model what you want them to do and praise those who are doing it they generally conform!

[brasty]

I have worked in a nursery and with older children. I think it is a number of things.
Institution with clear expectations and rules. Kids generally respond well to clear rules and expectations. And you can't deviate from this. If you don't follow through once, you have nearly every kid trying to challenge the rules. So we stick to them, all the time.
Most parents say it gets easier to parent the third or fourth child, than the first. You do learn tips and tricks. Workers have worked usually with hundreds of kids, and so have learned lots as they go along.
I think workers have higher expectations often of young kids, and kids rise to that. I have read on here so many times 3, 4, 5 year olds can't do x, when I have known many many kids that age perfectly capable of doing those things. I rarely bother answering those comments now, as it is never taken well.
Kids respond well to seeing other kids doing things and tend to copy them.
Workers don't have the same emotional fears that parents do. Kids pick up for example on parents fears that they might not eat anything, or not be eating the right kind of thing. At a nursery we offer fruit, but its not a big deal whether they eat it or not. And I think kids tend to pick that up.
Workers are more likely to have had a good nights sleep. There is nothing worse than trying to look after young kids when you are exhausted.
I also got better behavour even when I was looking after a 3 year old SN child myself. I think part of that as well was because I was able to take life at his pace. So his mum complained he would tantrum when they walked anywhere. He never did for me, but we took ages to walk anywhere. We would play games, look at random stones, sing songs, we never ever just walked anywhere. Same when I had to take a group of SN young children into a supermarket. I took it at their pace and made it fun. Parents obvously can't always do that.

[Bubspub]

Thanks Snuggly, I hear what you're saying. You're right, I do expect him to be naughty. I didn't start out that way but it's in response to his behaviour, he's worn us both down. I know I need to reverse this, I agree I need to phrase things more positively. I'm just reading 'Raising your spirited child' and reading about the importance of positive labels. It's hard though because he has just been such a handful, really so naughty, it's sometimes hard to stay positive after a day of saying "stop it", "no", "don't do that", "that's naughty behaviour" etc etc. But something has to change, and nursery have helped me to see that it IS possible! X

[SnugglySnerd]

Good luck! It's hard isn't it?
Also bear in mind that nursery workers are there to play/teach/entertain etc the children, they are not also trying to do the washing, change the beds, cook the lunch, do the shopping etc at the same time.
I realised today that I totally underestimate how much DD can do. At lunchtime she wanted to help, she dragged a chair over to the worktop, kneeled on it and spread cream cheese on the bread without any help. It's made me think that at stressful times e.g. when cooking, instead of trying to get her out from under my feet I should give her some responsibilities.

[Bubspub]

Yes I keep trying to give tasks to occupy too. It's really hard! I think we can expect more of them than probably we do. Cream cheese on bread is very skilled indeed!

[brasty]

Workers do do a lot other than entertain your child.
By the way I would discourage anyone from being a nursery worker. Underpaid and under appreciated, and tons of paperwork. People seem to be sympathetic to schools and OFSTED, but don't seem to realise that nurseries get the same. Plus you get daft complaints from the minority of parents. So yes, we do make kids wear aprons when painting, but no we can't guarantee that they will never get paint on clothes, so don't send them to nursery wearing expensive clothes and then complain when there is a bit of paint in them.

[Bubspub]

Brasty I appreciate them! And I'm sure lots of the parents do, certainly lots of people on this thread. It must be incredibly tough work, but it makes a huge difference to the lives of children and their parents. I know that doesn't pay the bills and I believe they should get better pay than they do x

[Starduke]

DS started school just before he turned 3 (we're not in the UK). 32 DC, 1 teacher and 1 TA. I do not know how they did it but the DC all learnt so much that year!

In the first year they napped in the afternoon but DS had already dropped his nap so we kept him at home.

The second year he had to stay til 4.30pm but part of the afternoon was a 45 minute nap. I told the teacher there was no way he'd do it as he hadn't napped in over a year. Lo and behold, he did nap! (although they also admitted that sometimes he just lay quietly). We tried to encourage him to nap at the weekend too but he was having none of it.

[SnugglySnerd]

Sorry Brasty I didn't mean it to sound like nursery staff just entertain the kids and nothing else, I just meant it's different if you're the only adult at home with small children all day and you are trying to do all the cooking, shopping etc as well as looking after the kids.
I definitely appreciate DD's nursery workers, they work bloody hard and must go home exhausted. DD absolutely adores them too!

[brasty]

Yes of course it is different to being a parent. And I know some parents are appreciative. It is a small minority of parents though who are difficult. I know people who have left the job because they got fed up with that small minority of parents who had totally totally unrealistic expectations and would make those known through frequent complaints.

I do think the standard of care should be very high. I am talking about things like paint on clothes, or kids falling over and hurting themselves. The kind of things that are going to happen with any young children anywhere.

[SnugglySnerd]

It's ridiculous when parents complain about things like that. Those things would still happen at home!

[Frouby]

I was in DS nursery today for 10 minutes while DS was getting changed. About 20 2-4 year olds were tidying up the room. Effectively and without fuss. Then were all told it was carpet time so trotted over and sat on the carpet. Nursery worker asked for 'listening ears and quiet time'. Instant silence and all sat waiting to start singing.

I was transfixed. But when dd was about 5/6 maybe I remember watching the class teacher get their attention by slow clapping a few times then raise her hands then fols her arms. Within seconds a class of 30 6 year olds had joined in the slow clap, raised their arms then folded them and were silent.

I did it at one of their class birthday parties when they were all a bit hyper at the end, pushing and shoving to be first for a party bag. All the kids did exactly the same thing. And stood looking at me waiting to be told what to do like a little troupe of Pavlovs dogs.

The other parents were very impressed. And looked at me like some sort of witchy supernanny. But the kids were just so used to doing it they assumed I was now in charge and they had better listen.

[madein1995]

It definitely takes a knack when I first became a nursery nurse I was just too naive/nice and the kids ran rings around me. After a while I found my teacher voice and managing a class of 20-odd becomes easier after a while - not shouting works well, also putting down the book you're reading when they;re too noisy, shocked 'oh my goodnesses' when they play up etc

[BertieBotts]

I LOVE the slow clapping trick! I will have to try that with some of my classes, although I suspect they will just be rioting too loudly to notice

[Eyedrophell]

Me, I can get a room full of children to behave, listen, sit nicely, I can stop a 10 year old in their tracks with a raised eyebrow (work with 1-11 year olds), if you saw on the school run wrangling with my stroppy 5 year old who is playing me up big time, you'd never believe it. Children. Behave very differently for others.

[Toyslayer]

Group conformity :)

[Bubspub]

Love this slow clapping trick too! Also agree there's something quite powerful about group dynamics and feeling pressure to conform. Do you know, all this exemplary feedback from nursery has empowered me hugely and prompted me to see that I need to have much higher expectations of his behaviour. I have said to him a number of times already today that "we're not putting up with this anymore because we know how good you are at nursery", and it's sort of stopped him in his tracks (after howling through the nappy change, rolling poop all over the floor and later hitting my MIL in the face). I can see him stopping and thinking about it, I can tell he understands now. I don't think things will change overnight or anything, he's going to test boundaries clearly and probably will behave worse for us than nursery, but I do believe things can be much better than they are now, I've seen the light!

[ElphabaTheGreen]

Thing is though Bubspub...do you behave at home the way you do at work? I doubt it. He needs to have a release valve at home - it would be exhausting and stressful for him to be on 'nursery mode' behaviour-wise all the time. Children kick off at home because they are more securely attached to parents than they are nursery workers. Someone upthread said something along the lines of, 'children know their parents' love is unconditional'. This is true, but this is not a comment on the parents being soft or permissive. Children know they can let off steam in front of parents without losing status/affection - and this is a good thing! We all need that, as adults too. You will have at least one person in the world in front of whom you can do/say anything, and I think you would feel very lost without that person or people. Multiply that by about one hundred million when applying it to a tiny child.

Your DS's behaviours are not 'naughty' or 'misbehaving' - he's behaving like a two year old, because he is. He will grow out of wrestling you during nappy changes, as long as you are consistent with the fact that nappy changes will happen whether he likes it or not. Quite apart from anything else, he'll be ready for potty training very soon. My four year old is still in night nappies - he doesn't wrestle at all any more when I put them on now, and he used to be a flailing octopus until the penny dropped that there was no point. Your DS will grow out of trashing everything in sight, as long as you are consistent in pulling him away from things he shouldn't be messing with and directing him towards things he can. The tantrums will also die down as he acquires more language and discovers words and concepts to put across what he's thinking and feeling, without you doing anything other than ensuring safety and giving the hairy eyeball to judgemental onlookers.

Don't set yourself too high standards I guess is what I'm saying. They could be impossible to achieve, just result in an unwinnable battle of wills, and not necessarily for any good reason other than asserting parental dominance, when really, time and consistency sorts it all out in the end.

[ElphabaTheGreen]

Just re-read your OP - he's 21mo, not even 2 yet!

So, what I said up there ^^ even more, plus have a reasonable expectation that things are going to get worse for a little bit before they get better. You'll have a pleasanter life!

[Bubspub]

Thanks Elphaba, for putting it into perspective for me, I appreciate it. He really is very naughty for us though. We now only take him out to restaurants with my in-laws present, because it takes a team of us to manage his terrible behaviour, and it nearly always ends in him shrieking very loudly (when he can't walk into the kitchen, or when he feels the 20 minute walk one of us just gave him outside wasn't long enough), we have lost count of how many times he's embarrassed us. This isn't just an occasional thing or something he does from time to time, it is every time we go out, and constant mini tantrums at home through the day. Leading me to believe that maybe there's something wrong and he needs more support, but then I hear the glowing feedback from the nursery! I agree that it's important to keep sight of how small he is an have reasonable expectations. It's just DH and I have got to breaking point with his behaviour, something really needs to change as we both feel very down about how much it restricts our lives x

[BertieBotts]

Try this. I really found this site helpful when DS was that age. He honestly does sound like a normal 2 year old, I'm sure you're not doing anything wrong :) www.ahaparenting.com/ages-stages/toddlers

[ElphabaTheGreen]

Well...it's too early for assessment for this, but a hallmark of ASD is behaviour that is fine in school, but out of control at home, so I wouldn't necessarily use that as an indicator of 'fine' HOWEVER it's too early for calling anything like that at his age.

What are you expecting him to do in a restaurant? One of us still has to walk around constantly with DS2 (2.5yo) until food arrives when we're at a restaurant because sitting quietly at a table, even doing table-based activities, isn't on his agenda yet. You're going to have even less luck getting a 21mo to sit happily at a table in a busy restaurant with a million things to look at, if that's what you're aiming for. We still usually have at least one attack of rage from time to time - DH ended up taking DS2 home entirely after one non-stop shriekathon at Pizza Hut because he wanted ice cream factory before spaghetti. The next time we went, I asked the waitress to sit us out of sight of the bastard machine and it was fine.

Mini tantrums throughout the day = perfectly normal for his age. DS2 had about 4 before 7:30 this morning (offence taken to nose wiping, getting dressed, banana peeled incorrectly...🙄)

Toddlers are hard work, but they do kick off and accepting that, plus understanding the reasons why, go a long way towards being able to deal with them. Have you heard of Toddler Calm? DH and I did one of these courses and found it useful, not for strategies per se, but understanding and accepting normal toddler behaviour, and you having reasonable expectations of what they will/will not do - there's a book as well if you can't find a course.