To be disappointed that the school newsletter is asking for donations of 'dressing up clothes for boys.'

[Marcipex]

So much for equal opportunities.

[RachelRagged]

FFS

The things some get their knickers in a fucking twist about !!

[RachelRagged]

Glad that is all you seem to have issues with OP / . Get a LIFE

[anotheronebitthedust]

but the problem is, other than 'princess' dresses (and I suppose maybe the very old fashioned white-apron-with-red-cross 'nurses' outfit, which is well out of date now!) any other fancy dress costume is, actually gender neutral, as it basically consists of accessories related to a specific job, which can be performed by someone of any sex. So a stethoscope and white jacket worn by a girl or a boy would be a doctor, same with a fake gun, checked shirt and lassoo would be a cowboy/cowgirl,etc. etc.

But what they are saying is that a girl wearing scrubs and a stethoscope, which she takes from the blue box marked 'boys dressing up clothes,' isn't 'A girl dressing up as a doctor,' it's 'a girl dressing up in a boys costume.' which becomes in a 4-year-old's mind 'doctors are boys, girls can't be doctors.'

It depends...if it's just clumsy wording by the school it's an easy mistake. If, however, it's indicative a) of what will happen to the costumes once they are donated ("No, Ellie, you can't dress up in that, that's for the boys, why don't you go and put the Elsa dress on?") and b) the internal thought process of the teachers and wider school, it is something to pick up on, because it can lead to wider, more insidious,knock on effects, like a pp mentioned, for example a little girl being told off for being boisterous when a boy would be handwaved for doing the same thing, or a little boy made to play football when he wants to play hairdressers, and so on.

[Witchend]

But on MN every 4yo boy is just desperate to dress up as a pink fairy or we've failed as mums surely?
So if you want to make a point send in your pink fairy dress and say that's your boy's costume donation.

If however you are normal you understand that they're looking for something other than a fairy or Disney princess and send in something else.

btw Worra, I've found your eyes. They were sitting on the Christmas tree looking horrified at the photo of dd2 wearing a pink fairy dress. I do apologise I should have forced ds into it...

[Marcipex]

I didnt say I was offended, I said I was disappointed, that the school is perpetuating supposedly outdated stereotypes instead of challenging them.

And whoever it was up thread who said, if I hadn't pointed it out, no one would notice. I read the schools letter and I did notice. I presume other people have noticed as well, but I haven't asked them. It has only just been sent out.

[cherrycrumblecustard]

The thing is, a school is a place for learning, education.

I am not remotely arsed about princess dresses. I think they are hideous. But fairy tales featuring princesses have outdated attitudes in them which are damaging in the extreme. To get your prince, you should be helpless. Trapped, through poverty or in a tower, or unconscious. Or dead. Helpless, in other words.

Now I know full well the kids don't care about that. They just see a sparkly shiny dress. The issue I would have with this is that the school have somewhere along the line absorbed the attitude that girls play as one thing and boys play as another. And as people have correctly identified, boys will be dressing as superheroes, as doctors, firefighters.

I don't want to see any kid flouncing around in a dress. And no way would any child of mine be wearing one (even a tutu with wellies which seems to be the preferred style of dress) out and about. But at the same time I'd prefer that my children's educators didn't think dressing up as someone who actually got shit done is a domain purely for the boys.

[ladymariner]

rachel exactly!!!!!

[preparedtobeshotdown]

Really don't see the issue. My boys are stereotypical boys. If that's even a thing! [Confused] can't boys just be boys and girls just be girls please. I have actually had enough of these gender issues.... go on shoot me down

[PaulAnkaTheDog]

Grip master, you're needed right now!

[eyebrowsonfleek]

I suspect that it's badly worded rather than written to cause offence but then again my kids played parts in the nativity that they thought were for people of the opposite sex. (Wise Man and Angel)

[Pixel]

'doctors are boys, girls can't be doctors.'*
Oh come on, I'm 50 and when I was little I had a toy Doctor's bag, not a nurse's outfit. I bet most children, even four year olds, have been taken to the GP and seen a female doctor.
Have you thought that by making all this fuss you are telling any little girl who actually wants to be a nurse that she is not choosing a worthwhile career because she doesn't want to be a doctor?

[Pixel]

Apologies if I've aimed that end of my last post at the wrong person. I shouldn't look at MN when I'm in the middle of doing something else .

[RumbleMum]

I agree with MrsKCastle.

This would annoy me too. It might sound like right-on nitpicking but there's strong evidence to show that children pick on tiny, insidious clues to the gender role that society expects them to take. So saying they get free choice on dressing up or kinds of toys but look! - boys still mostly choose boys' stuff and girls mostly choose girls' stuff, so it must be something inherent in their nature, is bullshit.

We are all limited by the idea of established gender roles and schools should not be perpetuating them, however minor an issue this may appear to be.

Can you tell this is a topic I get a bee in my bonnet about? ;-)

[TropicPlunder]

Nursing is a very worthwhile career, as is medicine. Neither are gender specific! I don't think anyone is suggesting kids are encouraged to any type of costume (boys as fairies or girls as doctors)...or career for that matter it's about not labelling neutral outfits/careers as gender specific, especially as that doesn't reflect real life

[BIgBagofJelly]

Really don't see the issue. My boys are stereotypical boys. If that's even a thing! [Confused] can't boys just be boys and girls just be girls please.

Weird comment. Of course your boys are free to be stereotypical boys absolutely nothing wrong with that but there's also nothing wrong with a different boy putting on a nurses outfit if he fancies it or a girl wearing a superhero costume. Why not let kids be kids and put on whatever fancy dress they choose? If that's stereotypical for their gender fine if not fine too.

As to the OP I don't think I'd get my knickers in a twist over it as they probably just phrased it badly. As long as they don't literally have boys and girls dressing up boxes separately I wouldn't care.

[preparedtobeshotdown]

That's not what I meant but I agree with you bigbagofjelly.

Why do people waste their time worrying about the wording of a letter about gendering costumes. The kids aren't reading so what's the problem. And things like fairy and Princess clothing I would categorise as girls clothing.

All clothing websites separate clothing as girls and boys and unisex and men's and women's. So why are fancy dress any different. The kids are free to wear what they want but in general terms yes most clothes are gender organised.

[Livelovebehappy]

Whether people like it or not, most girls like to wear pretty princess clothes and most boys like to dress up as a super hero. But I guess the poor admin staff who put this letter together will get a slapped wrist for offending a minority of mums who really do have far too much time on their hands if they find this sort of thing worth getting their knickers in a twist over.

[2rebecca]

I don't see the problem. Some people enjoy being offended. In my experience cross dressing is fun for tiny tots and older kids secure of their sexuality. School age kids are very lemming like and like to fit in.
Parents also don't tend to buy as many dressing up clothes for boys especially now red indian and cowboy costumes aren't as popular as they were in the 70s when we all watched dodgy westerns on saturday morning TV

[Nomoreworkathome]

I didnt say I was offended, I said I was disappointed, that the school is perpetuating supposedly outdated stereotypes instead of challenging them.

Oh FFS...... Really? REALLY?

[JJbum]

I'd be disappointed too OP.
Small children pick up these messages from a very young age and it affects their choices. Research has shown that adults play with babies they think are boys differently, subtle differences, from those they think are girls and that different play then affects how those babies play and the choices they make as young children. Research also shows that children as young as 3 or 4 pick up on stereotypes and positive and negative images associated with them, even when those are not stereotypes they'd experience at home (research done into racial images with preschoolers shows this). Research also shows that teachers show their expectations in subtle not verbal ways that they may not even be aware of. So yes, these things matter.

Age 4 my children (each of them) made comments that showed assumptions that a man in a medical environment was a doctor because purely because was a man or weren't sure what a woman in that environment was because she was a woman. They didn't pick up those ideas at home at all!!

I wouldn't be guns blazing about this but I would be disappointed and I hope I would seek clarification from staff. If they really did mean more occupational and super hero costumes then I'd also like to think that I point out they should have said that and why. If they meant it more literally, please bring in costumes your boys be outgrown, then I'd like to think I'd check what my son no longer needed was useful (and list the princess dress with the other items).

[BIgBagofJelly]

preparedtobeshotdown

I know a few boys (not most) in my son's class who dress as fairies, in fact two out of three angels in the nativity were boys (after expressing an interest in the role!). The point is it's fantasy - why not just let them wear what they like without applying subtle pressure one way or the other.

There's often this straw man thrown around that people are suggesting you should force your son into a princess costume or make your daughter wear ninja turtles outfits. I have literally never seen anyone suggest this.

If left to their own devices it might be that 80% of boys and girls choose stereotypical costumes. I think that's fine, but why dissuade the 20% who might want to choose the "wrong" gendered stuff by labelling it boys or girls. I'm not suggesting it's malicious in anyway (and if the kids won't even see it it may not matter) but it seems relatively simple to just not bring gender into it and let the kids do what they want. I just don't see the harm in it.

[AuntieStella]

Angels in the Bible are male.

Thinking of them as female is a very recent change in the gendering (possibly in step with the past-War decline in churchgoing).

Stereotypes can and do alter.

But that can only begin when it is recognised that they exist and that they matter.

[Armadillostoes]

YANBU- I would have been disappointed too. People doing the eye-rolling are a big part of the reason why gender stereotypes are pushed onto children more now than they were in the 1980s. It isn't about one letter, it is about the attitudes and issues which it reveals.

[BroomstickOfLove]

When DD was on reception I noticed that her (NQT) teacher often made comments which subtly reinforced gender stereotypes - referring to the girls as princesses, commenting positively on a boy's bravery etc. I didn't say anything, but it annoyed me. Three years later, when DC2 was in his class, I noticed that he had completely stopped doing it - someone must have pointed it out to him, or he noticed it himself and made a conscious effort to stop doing it. I was very impressed, and I those three years he had gone from being a competent teacher to a very good teacher indeed, and his no-fuss attitude to avoiding gender stereotypes was just one of the things that made him so good.

I'm wondering if people would be so blasé about other stereotypes being reinforced in the newsletter classroom. Would people be looking to be offended if the teacher asked for some dressing up outfits suitable for working class children, or children from white British families, or Muslim children, or academically able children?