To want my son to live elsewhere

[nameChangerHigh]

He's a nightmare and always has been. He's 15 now, has been stealing from us consistently for years, taking alcohol and cigarettes, money, god knows what else. He goes out and comes back when he feels like it (sometimes after midnight), he says horrible things like his brother is the result of a failed abortion, im a shit parent, my autistic step son is a retard, fuck off and die etc etc. I've involved the community police regarding the stealing and it basically just went over his head. When he was younger he was assessed for special needs and they said he was fine, just needed more discipline (however my eldest son is absolutely fine), he's constantly in trouble at school, to the point where in the last week of school before summer hols they rang me saying "just keep him off until September".
I've tried getting his father to help and he's useless, just laughs at him and encouraged him so I said "you have him then" and he went quiet.

Tonight he apparently got into a fight with my eldest son and came home shouting "that's what you get for raising such a shit son" so I snapped and said "coming from you??". I maybe shouldn't have done but DS1 was sent home from college today suffering an extreme panic attack, ended up at doctors and has been referred to MIND so the last thing I want to hear is him slagging him off. He then got in my face saying "you what?" Etc. Then he walks off with the usual "you're fucked up you mate" etc etc.

I just don't want him here anymore. I've tried with him but he doesn't want to know. He's wrecking my marriage (got in DHs face saying "come on then, I'll get my dad to kick the shit out of you" to which DH walks off saying "I didn't sign up for all this shit".)

He makes the house an unhappy place for DS1 and puts me off my work, I'm on sick at the moment with stress. I've tried his dad again who isn't interested.

DS2 has now stormed out and I don't know where he is or what he's up to. I've found a knife hidden in his room in the past and all sorts.

I want to give up.

[Ninarina]

He wants his dad. He needs his dad. He knows his dad doesn't want him. This is what is killing him. I'm sorry you are going through this. X

[user1471550406]

OP, please don't delay and then blame yourself when something bad happens, do it today: sit him down and calmly explain that you love him very much but his behaviour is unacceptable. Warn him that the next time he threatens, kicks, swears, etc. you will have to call police. Then when he does something, please do it, as much for his own benefit, as for your safety. You are failing him if you don't show that his actions have serious consequences. The involvement of police will help you with social services and getting him help. Good luck, please think about yourself and other family members.

[hollyisalovelyname]

Oh Leopard.
Does he stay in touch with you- who tried to give him love and stability ?

[leopardgecko]

what happened to the boy you fostered

Now adult, he is in prison for a very serious offence.

[MiscellaneousAssortment]

Im so sorry, it sounds terrible. I hope SS will help. Would be worth making it clear that your other child is vulnerable and being effected by the troubled one. They need to help both children...

[hollyisalovelyname]

Leopard what happened to the boy you fostered ?

[PigPigTrotters]

BadKnee there are a few things you can do to help. No magic wand unfortunately, but The Explosive Child is a good place to start.
There's a website called The PDA Resource which has loads of links which may prove helpful.
Changing language used can help - no direct demands, options etc
There are several groups on FB which are worth joining, excellent for day to day support and learning new strategies and knowing you're not alone, just search pathological demand avoidance and they should come up.

Feel free to PM me if you want any more info

[leopardgecko]

OP, I am so very sorry for all you are going through.

Your son is exactly the same as a child we fostered for 5 years, who was very much part of our family and very much loved by us all.

I see you have very many posts suggesting you call Social Services. Of course all areas, all social workers are different, but I do know in my case they made a very bad situation even worse. The thing was that Social Services and also the police tried to be understanding and helpful, tried to help him, but in reality they let him get away with everything. So when at 15 he was permenantly excluded from school and refused to go to another, they did not insist, when he refused to work with a home tutor, they allowed this too. With every violent episode, every theft, he would have a "nice chat" with a professional and given much kindness and sympathy. He laughed in their faces. Social Services put pressure on the police not to charge him, instead giving him caution after caution after caution. He once said "you can get away with anything when you are in care" and in his case, sadly he was right.

When I look back on that time I sincerely believe that being punished at the beginning may have been help in the long term. "Crying out for help" is a phrase that has been written here, and one I also believed then. But now I know the well meaning kindness and sympathy from SWs and therapists, and lack of action by the police, created a monster.

I am sorry if this is unhelpful, and am not at all sure if it makes sense.
I would so urge you to make sure you and other vulnerable members of your family needs are given proirity. I didn''t, and I regret that.

Of course your local police force, and your local children''s services may have a completely difference approach should you contact them. I so hope for your family that this is the case, and I wish you much courage and good wishes for the horrible time you are all going through.

[WiddlinDiddlin]

I realise you don't want to kick him out, and I wouldn't advise just literally throwing him out and shutting the door behind him..

But you have to put your other childs needs somewhere and right now they certainly aren't coming first, or second, or.. anywhere it seems, because your troubled son is (*he thinks) fully aware you WON'T do anything serious about his behaviour.

My sister was like that, the breaking point was at 17 when she fractured my skull and then left me bleeding on the floor and went off out with MY friends to the pub (telling them I'd gone out with someone else!)..

My parents didn't want to do anythign either but I went to hospital and then straight from hospital to the police station where I reported her for assault.

She came home at pub kicking out time to find two police officers waiting for her and she was arrested and put in the riot bus and taken away and she spent a FULL weekend (bank holiday) in the police cells awaiting the youth court on the Tuesday morning.

Then she had a restraining order against her meaning she couldn't be within 100feet of me and so she had to go and stay with my Dad 150 miles away (as suddenly none of her friends wanted to know!)..

And THAT is what it took for her to see her behaviour as serious - and frankly this was probably one of the milder things she'd done but she'd done the really horrific things to our Mum who wouldn't take action (handcuffed her to a solid item of furniture and stole her cashcard and all her cash and car keys and threw the car keys away so she could get away... that was a fairly memorable one!)..

So no, you can't just shut the door behind him and say 'on yer bike mate, do one'..

But you CAN talk to social services and be HONEST with them about how bad it is, about the effect it is having on your other child.

You CAN speak to the police about things like weapons, threats of violence, actual violence, theft etc etc.

And you can and should tell him calmly and clearly that you WILL be doing these things.

[MummyIsAFreeElf]

I grew up in similar circumstances with my eldest brother. He was a nightmare in his teenage years. Started off with running away to violent outbursts and serious dramas. He was introduced to drugs at around 14. When arguing with my parents it would always result in him getting kicked out or storming out himself and not coming home for days. His drug habits worsened as did his choice in friends. He has a few criminal charges against him but he finally wised up and found his way. He got himself clean. Stopped hanging around with the wrong people. After 10 years he got himself back into eduction. He left school with no qualifications and now has a lot. And he has just started a university course in astrophysics. He has completely turned his life around and swears that it was the threat of a custodial sentence that made him change.

The only difference in circumstances is that we had a horrible home life. Abandoned by our fathers at a young age and an abusive mother with mental health issues. I know it may seem dark now but it's not too late for him. He can change and sort his life out. He's only 15. Took my brother to get to his late 20s but he got there in the end.

My advice would be to not kick him out. That will cause resentment and could make things worse. Involve the police and social services. Seek counselling and help with mental health. I would also suggest seeking family support through some sort of mediation.
I really hope things get easier sooner rather than later xoxo

[Totallybonkersmum]

I had some problems with my DS, very similar to this. It was beyond awful.
I don't know whom, to this day, but someone contacted adult social services and they contacted the police. Our house, although repaired, when you really look, it actually bears testament to his anger issues and his violence. He's actually hit me before too. His anger was actually so bad that despite being seriously ill, I left the house and stayed in a refuge overnight.
Adult social services actually contacted the police who in turn contacted me for a suitable time to come round, as soon as possible. I was very shocked, tbh. I still don't know who contacted the social services, I know it wasn't the refuge. I've looked my DS straight in the eye, and actually told him, I don't have a complete clue, which is the truth. The police that came weren't community police either. Upon hearing the events that occurred the night before, the police were keen to issue an immediate arrest warrant for him, but I begged them not to.
However, they've said that if the problem occurs again, then they would definitely arrest him, even just for threatening behaviour.
DS was initially very angry at first because he hadn't been able to put his side of the story. I showed him the proof that he refused to look at the night before that I hadn't done something he accused me of. He looked at me and I told him that his body language and his choice of wording to me the night before actually felt very threatening. I think he was shocked that this time, despite being extremely ill, I stayed out all night where I did. I've categorically told him that next time they will arrest him and prosecute, regardless, even for threatening behaviour.
For about a year now, he's been the best son ever and respects me. He's back to his old cuddly self. Dare I say, it was the rocket up the backside that he definitely really needed, as his DF is as much use as a chocolate teapot, and his behaviour to all of us when he comes home now is a total contrast. I actually think that the police being involved like they were at this point really put him on a much better, healthier path. We've had absolutely no reoccurrences. If he does, he knows that he'll definitely be arrested and charged, regardless, Even if we protest, the police have said its out of our hands now; they will issue an immediate arrest warrant, regardless. I think he was going down a very unhealthy path with the wrong people. This kick up the backside has made him really see sense. DS has big plans regarding his career. I've told him that many countries won't allow him access if he has a criminal record, which is actually true. Knowing him he'd have checked this on the internet too, to see if I was telling the truth.
Your DS is doing exactly the same. You need help to get him back into the right track. Call adult social services and ask for their advice. I think they'd strongly suggest you involve the police asp. Particularly given, that DS2 feels so unsafe he's now got a knife. You'll be doing DS1 a huge favour in the long term.
Btw, you may well find this very interesting. DH had a chat with the police too. Basically they've told him to grow a pair and man up. Not cower into the back of the sofa, or like last time, act as intermediary. It just doesn't work, and I've told DH so many times that it definitely doesn't work! He's actually upped his game now and I think once there was a hint of something about to kick off, my DH just said "oi, remember what you've been told". DS shut up and he's been as good as gold since.
Remember too, that this unchecked anger will lead him into potentially, a violent domestic partner. You need to stop this now. For his sake. And your marriage!

[user1477282676]

Send the little bugger to boot camp. I do feel for you OP AND for him though....I was a rebel when I was young and the reasons were that I felt so frustrated with everything. I could not articulate myself then but looking back I was very under stimulated.

I needed a drama group, a sport....I felt the need for drama in my life constantly so I made it...

Acting classes were what saved me.

Would he go?

[TheBouquets]

I would like to send you my warmest thoughts with this nightmare you are in. I don't have any solutions really but I think that DS is crying out for some help. Something seems to be upsetting him to make him be like this. It is so worrying for you but I think some strict but loving parenting could be tried for a short time to see how that goes.

[Cakedoesntjudge]

I don't have any helpful suggestions to add but wanted to give you all a bit of hope.

My parents could have written this about my younger brother when he was younger. He had a comfortable upbringing and yet spoke the same way. He got kicked out of school, arrested a few times - the last time he went to court me and other DB were fuming. We'd turned up to support our parents who were beside themselves and had no idea what else to do and the court ruled that as he clearly had a stable loving family they were going to let him off with community service - me and DB strongly felt a small sentence in a youth offenders institute would have done him the world of good and shown him he isn't the 'hard man' he thinks he is.

My DM kicked him out to live with my dad from when he was about 13, my DF kicked him out when he was 18 and set him up in a flat as he couldn't bring himself to just make him homeless (as a side note, these things both made things worse for a while, he really resented them both for giving up on him and I think still does to an extent but there does come a point where you run out of options. I just wanted to prepare you for that reaction).

It has taken 2 years and DB losing numerous jobs through poor behaviour and continuing his drug problems and generally poor decision making.

However (and I am touching wood as I write this) we finally feel like we can see the light. He has met a truly lovely girlfriend (god knows how he managed this) and obtained training through the job centre and now has options for work lined up. He has been making more of an effort with the family, cut right back on drug use and is generally pleasant to be around. He's started talking about plans for the future and it does genuinely seem like he's reaching a turning point dear god I hope so it's about time.

So for all of you going through this currently I wanted to give you at least a small ray of hope. I know I have had numerous conversations with both of my DPs when they have been very upset and felt like this was a path he'd chosen to be on forever and they were convinced he'd either end up in prison or an early grave. I think when going through things like this the teenage years can feel like a lifetime, but you have to keep in perspective that it's actually a small window of their life and they will have so many opportunities to turn the corner and many people do.

I also think that whatever faults parents may or may not make (and I fully accept that in my situation my DPs enabled my DB's behaviour for years) there comes a point where the child in question is not a child anymore. They know right from wrong by the time they are 15/16 and they make the choice to behave in the way they do. Plenty of people have truly horrendous upbringings and don't choose that path. I'm not denying that they might be desperately unhappy and struggling for whatever reason but that doesn't change the fact the behaviour is inexcusable and they have to take ownership of that because in a couple of years time the rest of the world will expect them to. That's a conversation I had with DB a number of times. Me and my older DB had the exact same upbringing as his but made very different choices. Unfortunately it's a lesson he chose to learn the hard way.

[BadKnee]

PigPigTrotters - just read your link. That is sickeningly familiar.

Avoided school for years, avoids doing anything he is asked or is expected of him, obsessive, poor hygiene, avoidance strategies, extreme anxiety, the telling other kids to behave but not seeing it himself weird social behaviour..

But what do I do?

Late now so going to bed but will be coming back to this thread tomorrow.

[MrHankyTheXmasPoo]

I have been in this situation. Years of trying to get help. Ended up with me not wanting to be in the house alone with him so I would wait around the corner until someone else was home. Ended up having s breakdown and walking out of the house one night and just kept on walking, was -3. Got,picked up miles away. look after yourself.

[BadKnee]

Have namechanged.
My heart goes out to you. To all of you in similar situations.

My DS is 15 and is mostly horrible to live with. Different but similar problems. I have been desperate for a break, even a weekend. I have thought about social services but have been worried about the consequences, the loss of control, the effect on my DD if he is involved with SS, the shame, the backlash from him... So I am reading with more than a little interest.

[bumsexatthebingo]

One thing that struck me about your post is that the child doesn't seem to have any discipline at school or at home. He's disruptive at school and gets sent out and you're told not to bring him back. The school need to be putting some support in place for him whether he has recognised sn or not as there are clearly emotional/behavioural issues going on. If they are sending him home to avoid dealing with him and it isn't being recorded as an official exclusion the school are also breaking the law.
At home you say he comes and goes as he pleases. Does he receive any consequences for poor behaviour? I'm not saying that to judge as you sound quite intimidated by him.
Also is he aware that you want to throw him out and his dad doesn't want him? While it's completely understandable that you feel that way if he feels unwanted and liked less than his siblings that is likely fuelling some of the aggressive behaviour towards family members.

[edbear]

First of all big hugs. There IS help out there...call family Lives. Also //www.holesinthewall.co.uk also keep going with social services. But it can and will get better. I know of a woman whose son not only mentally but physically abused her. For years. They are fine now. I don't blame you for wanting him gone
..it sounds exhausting and immensely destructive for the whole family. I.hope you get the help.you all need.

[PigPigTrotters]

I may be completely barking up the wrong tree, but have a look at this
My 11 yr old has PDA and a lot of the behaviour sounds very similar.
I'd also recommend you have a look at the book The Explosive Child.
It really sounds like there's something underlying going on, and the key to sorting this will be identifying what's going on.

[Domino20]

www.livestrong.com/article/1008376-boot-camps-ohio-teens/

Can you find/afford/arrange funding for some kind of boot camp?

[seasidesally]

also imo SS dont just take them and put them in foster care etc,it just dosent work like that

seriously they wont be any use,imo his dd is your best bet

[seasidesally]

op your story was mine 17mths go

one of three sons he was 16yrs old was a living nightmare,stealing,violent to me and my dad,lying,smashing the house up,trouble at school etc
a
he was assessed as being in the grey area for adhd,basically a stale mate with the authoritys

begged begged begged SS to help,didnt want to know

couldnt stay with grandparents and his dad had passed away 5yrs before

anyway last year huge fight and i called the police,he ran of and i said he was not coming back

he now lives with a friend and their family,SS were involved then but were not interested

the first few months were horrible,he would turn up at mine shout and cuss and spit in my face,horrible txts etc

it took 6months for him to even be civil but a year on things are better

home now is so so calm especially for my other two sons

i still feel guilty for not letting him come back but also think it was the only thing that worked

he is now in college and has a part time job

he has matured little but when he spends few hrs here little bits of his controlling personality creep through and then i remember why he cant live here

all the very best op

[Livelovebehappy]

Absolutely shouldn't throw him out. He's a child fgs. I'm sure we've all had varying issues with teenagers, although I agree probably not to such extremes as OP. I know OP probably might not want to hear this, but there must have been some elements of her parenting which has failed. Especially telling is when she was told by the community police that he needed more discipline. Teenagers can have their life turned round if they get the right support, and chucking him out will just make him more resentful, and more likely to fall in with the wrong people. Discuss with SS OP, as they will have had experience of dealing with this sort of problem and will put you in touch with the right people to help you.