Does this sound ok? What happened at school today

[DramaKing]

I've namechanged incase the teacher is a mumsnetter.

My child is in year 4.

Child told me today that the whole class missed PE because some children were talking. They apparently all got changed, got outside then the teacher told them all she'd had enough and to get back instead and change back into uniform.

The teacher next told them "I don't want to come to school tomorrow with you lot but I've got to".

The whole class apparently keep missing 10 minutes of their lunch because a few are talking.

That isn't the first time they've missed PE and they've only been back a couple of weeks.

It all sounds very negative and dc told me the teacher hates them all.

I'm a bit annoyed my child is missing out on exercise and PE because of a few children. Never had this problem in any other class.

Am I wrong? What does the mumsnet jury think?

[JeSuisUnChocoholic]

user1473 The only 'javelins' at primary schools I've ever seen are foam ones. IME they only use metal ones at secondary.

[heavenlypink]

Longlost10 Can you please tell me what LA or organisation the "advice" that you cannot ask a child about their weekend has come from?

[ladyvimes]

Longlost after having my most recent safeguarding training two days ago I can assure you are talking absolute rot. Sitting with children at lunchtime and talking about their interests and what they did at the weekend is not a child protection issue. It is perfectly acceptable to ask a child 'have you had a good weekend?' and is not seen as grooming! How totally ridiculous!

As for missing PE I gave done this before. When you have 30 children outside (or in the hall) it is vitally important that they listen to and follow instructions. If the majority of the class are not doing this it can make things very unsafe. Usually they get the message after one occurrence. If it happens regularly the teacher may need some class management support and so a word with a senior member of staff might be a good idea.

[Longlost10]

user, you are clearly totally unaware of the "latest" child protection procedures ( I say latest, but you are breaking rigid rules that re several years old, but I'm guessing you have no idea of any that come later, either)

I can't see how asking a child at the dinner table whether they had a good weekend is against CP rules
this. it is very explicitly forbidden. If it comes to it, I personally cannot see all that much wrong with it myself, but "have you had a good weekend" was the first and most heavily emphasised question on the forbidden list, you don't seem to be aware of this. There are schools where this in itself would be disciplinary, and if you persisted, sackable. You can say " have good weekend", " but never "have you had a good weekend/". It is a personal question and leading towards the disclosure of personal information, classed as grooming, etc etc. "Have you had a good weekend?" Is actually used as the prime example of the type of probing "getting to know you" question that is considered completely inappropriate from a teacher I'm not saying it makes sense, but there you go. You belong to a different era.

On another note, no, you were not thinking laterally, don't going to bother to explain what lateral thinking is, look it up.

unapproachable, inflexible, misguided and totally assumptive, strangely enough, that is exactly how I would describe the way you thought you could tell that poor woman how to do her job, I feel so sorry for her, having to smile, and "handle you" while seething inside. I imagine she would go home and punch the wall.

[user1470269632]

I totally agree with you, Hexbramble. Longlost10 is totally deluded. I know exactly which subjects not to discuss regarding CP issues. There is absolutely nothing wrong with talking to children in the school canteen, where there are other teachers doing the same thing.
I know the teacher in question wasn't told to butter me up; she wouldn't have had time, because I went straight for the headmistress' office to the teacher. She wasn't able to contact her in the interim. I was extremely careful about how I approached the teacher. The teacher was genuinely ok, because it's not fair to punish the entire class for the sake of the few that can't behave. I was thinking laterally. If the shoe was on the other foot, I would become with it. In the staffroom we openly discuss how to deal with each child, because some children are more receptive to a private chat away from the class, so they're not embarrassed, but somewhere that is open to other members of staff. Other children are more difficult to deal with and not so receptive.
I can't see how asking a child at the dinner table whether they had a good weekend is against CP rules. It's better for a child to feel that teachers are human and approachable so that they feel confident in my class.
I deal with CP issues actually and speak often to the CPO whenever he visits.He knows me well and him likewise. If I felt I needed advice, I wouldn't hesitate to ask. He often joins us at lunchtime too and doesn't have any issues with any of my fellow colleagues regarding CP issues. Trainee teachers are quickly dealt with if they cannot comprehend the seriousness of CP issues. It's called sorting the wheat from the chaff! Those sorts of trainee teachers don't make it through our vigorous training.
You really don't have an absolute clue Longlost10. I'd hate to think what sort of teacher you would be, that's for sure! You'd be unapproachable, inflexible, misguided and totally assumptive, just for starters!

[Longlost10]

user, you sound completely deluded.Of course she was told to keep you sweet! Of course she is perfectly able to demonstrate relaxed body language! Of course she was perfectly able to see the wood for the trees herself! Get real.If I sound aggressive it is because I can feel all her unexpressed anger and resentment, which she is probably still carrying round to this day.

As for the child protection issues, your behaviour, as you describe it in your original, and your most recent post, would absolutely get you sacked. You are well and truly submerged in the "zone of unsafe practice", and this would not be allowed to carry on unchecked.

Incidentally, I am not saying I agree that is how it should be, but it is how it is, and some of the things you openly admit to doing are precisely and explicitly what current CP training instructs against. It isn't matter of opinion, it is matter of being told what you can and can't say and do, and having to do what you are told.

[HexBramble]

That was meant for Longlost not Longleat, re your 12:51 post.

I'm a teacher and a parent, by the way.

[HexBramble]

Longleat, you're talking absolute rot.

[EllyMayClampett]

I'm getting fed up of PE being seen as somehow expendable. It isn't. And if there's concern that the children won't hear and follow instructions then send them off for a run. I would have thought that if they're bring nosy and silly a bit of exercise is exactly what they need!

I couldn't agree more RiverTam.

[ColdTattyWaitingForSummer]

I was a pretty well behaved kid at school, and whole class punishments really got my goat. Some kids who liked to bully others would deliberately set it up for everyone to get punished, just to hurt their peers who might enjoy whatever they were missing. And there was just that feeling that there was no point in being good, because you would be punished whatever you did. I do feel sorry for teachers now, dealing with large numbers of undisciplined children (one of the reasons I now home ed), but I think this tactic was a mistake.

[user1470269632]

Longlist 10, I'm extremely aware of CP issues, hence I ask open questions and definitely relating to direct members of any of their family.. I'm not 'interviewing' these children. I'm just showing general interest in them and what sort of things they enjoy. What's the harm with that?
I don't expect my techniques for class control to suit every teacher, but it works for me.
I don't and have never had any parent complaining about the way I handle my classes; quite the opposite. I keep all of the parents updated and I'm on friendly terms with them. I've made it clear my door is always open. If there is a misunderstanding I've always managed to deal with it amicably, but I don't hold the golden touch. I'm not claiming that.
As for the "poor, poor teacher and that she'd been told that she was to butter me up" is a completely ridiculous comment. She wasn't. She wasn't made to feel "humiliated and grinding her teeth, whilst smiling on the outside either". There's such a word called diplomacy. She hadn't been told to "butter me up" becUse the head told me to deal with her directly, which I did. There was no communication between them in the meantime. I'm 100% sure. The teacher wasn't "humiliated and grinding her teeth behind a diplomatic smile", because I wasn't only talking to her, out of earshot of any other members of staff. Her body language was actually very relaxed, as we'd already built a good repoire. I wasn't going in on the attack mode whatsoever. That's not my style. There was no diplomatic smile. She just simply acknowledged that she hadn't thought about the bigger picture or could think of alternative ways of dealing with a couple of children who were sloshing their sticky drinks around that they'd been allowed to out upon their desks. She just couldn't see the woods for the trees. That's all.
There was definitely no animosity between us following that conversation whatsoever. We were definitely had an amicable relationship.
Longlist10, I feel that you've read my message totally out of context. I'm not assuming that I have all the answers. As teachers we often talk in the staff room about using different approaches to different children and behavioural issues, because each child is a unique individual. Even with my own children I know what's most effective if I want to make a point. Your messages sound extremely aggressive and that you've read my message and basically decided for whatever reason to take out whatever frustrations you have upon me and make quite a number of assumptions and comments that are totally untrue and not what I've said. I'm just stating what works for me; that's all, not any other teachers. It's not the golden key to all situations, and I've never claimed that any of my stances or approaches to problems are. I treat my children as individuals who are all unique by chatting to them and getting to know their characters, which is important, I feel. I don't do this behind closed doors either. I do this with other teacher who also sit with their.pupils. Lunchtime is all about learning the art of communication with others and table manners. For instance, not picking go their noses at the table. But again, rather than embarrassing the child in front of their peers, I get up and have a gentle word with the child that they ought to go and wash their hands discreetly. We can see them all the time from where we sit, as can the school secretary..Yes, the child may mention mum is disabled or any other difficulties they face at home. I can then take those into account when talking to the child, choosing reading books and being particularly sensitive towards that child's needs..I stay in contact with all parents and my door is always open. If am concerned about a child's behaviour or pleased with their behaviour, I make a point of contacting all the parents. Parents like to be kept informed, whatever, and so they should be. I never finish my day at 3.05pm. I'm often there much later. I wonder much of my holidays considering how and what I can teach better and how I can make it more interesting. I even do that instead of counting sheep at night.
I've never actually had any parental issues/problems, ever. I know that many parents regard me as quiet, gentle and easy to approach. Even in a supermarket! But I don't mind!
So no, basically, I'm me; not a golden panacea to every other teachers problems or issues. And I'm most definitely don't consider myself as perfect. I just really enjoy my job and care for the children that I work with deeply.
You've read me totally wrong Longlist10 and it seems you have an angry hornets nest underneath the bonnet upon your head. It seems you have a different agenda here and have decided to take it out upon myself. I kindly suggest that you get off your high horse.

[paxillin]

I know some children who would make sure to chat for England if it means getting out of PE.

[cherrybath]

We had a truly ghastly teacher once who was always punishing my daughter. For a while I thought it was personal but then I discovered that she was horrible to all the girls and favoured the boys. She was only there for maternity cover and failed to get the permanent job that came along the year after, thank heavens.

It really is not acceptable for the children to miss PE.

[Longlost10]

poor, poor teacher, I feel so sorry for her. She was obviously instructed to butter you up and keep you sweet, and felt that humiliating herself in front of you was the easiest way to tick that box. I can just imagine how much she was grinding her teeth behind the diplomatic smile.

[Longlost10]

It definitely works you mean it worked for you, in your particular situation, at that particular time. Ridiculous to come onto a internet forum announcing you have the answer to making children behave in schools. You think every teacher I've seen this week has simply been going about it in the wrong way then, do you? you would last about 10 minutes trying that approach in the school I was in on Friday.

[Longlost10]

I used to sit with mine at the same table and we'd discuss anything but school. What they'd done at the weekend, what was their favourite TV programme, what was their favourite game, etc this must have been a long time ago, user, you'd be disciplined for breaking child protection guidelines if you tried this now.

I definitely wouldn't make empty threats saying I couldn't be bothered to come into school the meat day myself you don't know that she did, and if she did, you don't know that it was an empty threat. Teachers are walking out on a pretty epic scale, we had one this week, 2 weeks 2 days into her career. She had been threatening to for over a week, then she did. Personally, I think she was quite right to, she is highly qualified and experienced in other fields, and why should she put up with the daily round of personal abuse and rudeness she was getting? She had absolutely no reason to. You don't know how this teacher is being treated, but you can see from this thread how little support and back up she is likely to be getting from parents.

[user1470269632]

Good grief, as an ex teacher myself, this teacher sounds like a little Hitler and unkind to boot! Threatening children that she's not going to come to school herself is hardly a good role model. I can't understand her rule of not talking at lunch time too. Surely this is when children learn how to be sociable at the table. I used to sit with mine at the same table and we'd discuss anything but school. What they'd done at the weekend, what was their favourite TV programme, what was their favourite game, etc. It taught them how to converse at the table whilst learning table manners I.e. not to talk with a mouth full of food! .
I had this problem when dealing with one of my DC's teachers over water bottles at school and then they were banned because the juice inside made everything sticky. I suggested that rather rather than a total denial the juice be replaced with water. Healthier than sugared or aspartame type drinks. If the little darling still messed around with the water bottle, then take it away for a day. The next time they misbehaved take it away for two, etc. They'd soon get the idea that messing around with their water bottles wasn't a good idea, when they could see all their peers drinking!
My philosophy when dealing with a child who misbehaves it to make my punishment affect that child only, but also leave enough scope to step up the punishment if their behaviour doesn't improve. There's nothing like a bit of peer pressure or resentment after all, IMHO. Also by doing this, it gives me more scope to step up the punishment slowly. It definitely works. No two ways about it.
I definitely wouldn't make empty threats saying I couldn't be bothered to come into school the meat day myself! That's so wrong on so many levels.
I'd speak to the head teacher, myself. I did, in my situation, and this was obviously passed into the teacher. Well within a week the teacher admitted that my stance worked and my child was a lot happier because the teacher was no longer punishing the entire class!
The teacher herself had gone from school to university, then back to the school environment. I think as a mum myself, but also worked outside in the banking system made me more objective, mature and how to get children to comply with my rules and also so as to not damage equipment in the class. It was quite a wake up call for this teacher, because she then asked me how I'd deal with a variety of situations she was struggling to handle. We had a very amicable chat, with me treading on eggshells ;-) and her class control improved immensely. Her stress levels went down considerably too, to boot!

[jennielou75]

Could the comment about not wanting to come to school have been part of a longer conversation about classroom behaviour? When I have had a day of feeling like I have spent most of it nagging or shouting I have sat the children down and talked through why I have had to get cross.
I have also talked about how I don't enjoy shouting as they don't enjoy being shouted at, or having to spend the day nagging as they don't enjoy being nagged, and how we all need to enjoy school. I feel they begin to see me as part of the class and not just the boss and behaviour improves as a result. How they would report this to their parents I am not sure.

[Mycraneisfixed]

As pp said, PE is part of the National Curriculum and must take place twice a week in some form or another.
It's not just the exercise aspect, they learn plenty of other things during PE. Teamwork, dexterity skills, coordination, fairness, how to lose without having a tantrum.
As we head towards Christmas you can be assured that it'll be PE lessons that are missed when the kids are rehearsing for the Christmas concert

[xmb53]

As a Cub Scout leader, where attendance on both sides is voluntary, yes I have once or twice (in about 8 years) said to my pack that if they mess around as they are doing then I might not be coming back next week - and that if they look around the hall, can they see anyone at all who will take my place (there are Young leaders and at least one other parent there for my safeguarding). Starts to put things in perspective for them.....
Now, if a Cub then reports that to their parent, would it get a bit mangled in the message?

[HexBramble]

Not sure I appreciate my year 4 DD being branded as an arsehole

Yes, I suppose it very much depends on what they are doing, but a class that are poor listeners could easily do simple exercise drills around a yard until they 'earn' the next task. It sounds to me that the teacher isn't handling her class too well - to admit that she doesn't want to teach them isn't going to improve the dynamic at all.

I've also worked with teachers who hated PE and would look for any reason to not do the session...

[ProfessorBranestawm]

I wouldn't be happy with this happening on a regular basis! Giving the benefit of the doubt I suppose she is just starting strict, lots of teachers seem to start really strict in September.

I really don't like the idea of missing exercise being a punishment, partly because it makes the work they do instead seem like a punishment as well. Not a great way to encourage a love of academic stuff, IMHO.

[Longlost10]

Also the insurance position for PE is quite different.

[Longlost10]

PE, and some other subjects are different from maths, in that there is a far higher risk involved, and if a teacher judges that the standard of behaviour will increase the risk, then she will have to cancel the lesson. It has nothing to do with whether she like PE or not.

[RiverTam]

I'm getting fed up of PE being seen as somehow expendable. It isn't. And if there's concern that the children won't hear and follow instructions then send them off for a run. I would have thought that if they're bring nosy and silly a bit of exercise is exactly what they need!