Aibu to think school refused a place because of this

[Unluckyirish]

Hi,I'm new to the site so not sure where to post but this board looks active.

We moved house over the summer and dd's school is now too far to attend (4hours each way) and we haven't been able to find her a school place (year10) . We are planning to move again but haven't found the right house yet .so we applied to a school in the area that we want to move to.
We've looked around the school just before summer and were told when they move to the bigger building they will have space to take on more students. They asked Dd what options she'd pick and said she'd fit in nicely,just need to get in contact with precious school. so we really thought we'd get a place. Now they told us they have no space. Aibu to think they didn't offer her a place because they spoke to her previous school and found out she has a 'child in need plan' and didn't want all the extra hassle.

Sorry for rambling on,in a bit of a panic because she's not at school and year 10 is important ,can't get a place in the area we are in or the area we are moving to . Tried lots of schools but no luck.

[LIZS]

It could fall under Medical or Social Need , so check if schools specify that category in the admissions criteria. Presumably ss are aware of your move so would provide any supporting info.

[t4nut]

First stop - local authority. Ask for PAN for that year group, how many currently on roll. If you are on the waiting list ask where and under what criteria - and if not ask why not. Then ask for information on how to make an appeal for an in year admission to the school you want. You may have to email this request in.

If you've not formally made an application for a place do so ASAP. This is made to the local authority.

[DinosaursRoar]

If I've got this right, the new school isn't close to where you are currently living, but where you plan to move to after a 2nd move, is that right?

If so, they are probably telling the truth, they have had an additional 5 places become available, but those will be offered to the top 5 children on the waiting list, and if there are 5 who live closer than you, then those 5 will get the places first.

Alternatively, there's been a larger number in year 7 who don't have spaces anywhere in the LEA this year and they've been under pressure to accept more at that age group, rather than older age groups.

Is there another school close to where you are living right now you would be happy for your DD to go to?

[eddiemairswife]

LAs don't have to co-ordinate in-year applications, though some still do. If they don't you must apply directly to the schools' admissions authorities. In some cases that will be the LA. The LA must still keep an up-to-date list of vacancies in all schools in its area, so it is incumbent on schools to keep the LA informed. Fair Access Protocol is used if the child has been out of education for two months or more.

[Unluckyirish]

That's right dinosaur,we have tried every school near us and have been told no space either

[Unluckyirish]

Missed your post madgerussell1920 that's lovey ,given me hope now. I just feel that this school has got the impression that Dd needs constant looking after . She's having a mentally difficult time ,needs a teacher she can go to when she has breakdowns,someowhere where she feels safe at school and is on a child in need plan so I feel like schools just don't want all that extra hassle. I will be taking things further with the LA once I can actually get through to someone on the phone !

[confuugled1]

I've read on MN before of people who have had problems getting a place in a school ringing up the person in the appropriate council who is responsible for absence rates and truancies and such things... Then reporting yourself and your dd to them for not being in school because you don't have one, explaining that it's not by choice but that you are being brushed off every which way you turn.
They also apparently have powers to help get dc into schools. Might be a different angle to try if you haven't already...

Might also be worth contacting your mp to see if they can help, that's the sort of thing they can help with.

And being caught in a vicious circle where school 1 won't deregister you until you have a new school but school 2 can't do anything because you are still registered elsewhere is crazy. Is it worth talking to them again and say that if they won't deregister her then they had better pay for her.transport and a chaperone given the distance. And/Or have a lot of unauthorized absences because a 4 hour journey is going to get held up sometimes and youre not prepared to make it a 5 hour journey just to give enough safety margin every day because you dd should not be getting up at 3.30am every day to go to school. Might help to concentrate their minds if there are negative consequences for them!

Finally, if you are worried they don't want your dd in particular, can you get a friend to ring up and say that they're in the process of moving, have a y10 dc, what're the procedure and timescales, what are the vacancies like, etc etc and see what their reaction is.

If they say eek we"re full but to get on the waiting list you need to do xyz and we"d expext a place within 3 months then you will know that it could be a problem. If they say to fill in a form and rock up next week then you know they are stalling you.

Finally is it worth looking into other schools, even if theyare full, to see which others you like (or dislike the least) and to see how many of them would also be able to accomodate your dd's options. If there are some that do then great, more chances of a place freeing up and her getting back to school. If not, that's more weight to your arguments that your dd needs to go to this school that you want her to go to.

[Unluckyirish]

Wow thanks so much for all of that confuggleddidnt think of getting a friend to call up.i have told the council that my Dd is absent from school and we are trying out best but we can't send her 4 hours away and we're told 'apply to a local school,fill in the in year admission for etc' and we've done all that

[confuugled1]

Sorry if I wasn't very clear. I don't for a moment think you should send your dd to school so far away!
But if the other school or LEA are messing you around and not giving you the form to say you've moved away and left the school, just wondered if threatening them with a vast expense for travel or with unauthorised absence to screw up their figures would help to concentrate their minds in sorting this out - at least from their side - asap!

Good luck - can't imagine the nightmare you must be having when time is such a critical factor at the moment!

Maybe you should say that you're planning on taking her away on an unauthorised holiday for six weeks as they can't be bothered to provide an education for your dd...

That might make them sit up sharpish as they try to take you to court for taking your dd out of school - oh, wait, all along it's the lea and the schools that are enforcing this 'holiday' on your dd if they reckon they don't need to worry until end of October!

[Unluckyirish]

Thank you for all that confuggled LA are still being useless,asked them if they would provide transport for Dd to get to school and they said I will get fined for everyday that she is not in school. The other LA in the area we are moving to are useless to get hold of,not one person answered the phone so sent a strongly worederd email

[LadyConstanceDeCoverlet]

LA person really is talking utter nonsense. The only people with power to fine you because your child is attending the old school is your old LA, and they can't do that because you don't live there. Have you formally taken your child off the register of that school?

I suggest writing formally to the head of your LA's Education Department setting out the fact that you have moved into the area, you have done your best to find a local school but haven't succeeded and when you have contacted them for help you have been met with ridiculous suggestions that your child spend 8 hours a day travelling to go to her old school. Point out that by law they have to make sure that there are enough school places available for children in their area and ask them to tell you as a matter of urgency what they intend to do to find a place for your child since by law she should be in full time education. Copy your letter to your local councillors and MP and ask them to help.

In the meantime, apply formally for a place at your nearest school and, if or when they refuse. put in an immediate appeal and ask for an early hearing. The criterion for appealing is whether prejudice to your child outweighs any prejudice to the school from taking another pupil, and the fact that your child has no school place is very strong evidence of prejudice.

[Idefix]

I think I would also go to ss, if dd is still on CIN this should move with you and the local ss should assess your dd regardless of whether you intend to stay in the area long term.

Maybe not totally helpful but this sounds right up the local rag/daily fails street. Most LA don't like that kind of publicity, also local councillors workshop/Facebook page, mp.

This can work if other options fail or at least it did for df recently in the NW.

Also check if your area has a pupil family liaison officer/advisor.

[Unluckyirish]

Thank you for that information lady and idefix I hope this thread doesn't end up in the daily fail! Will try the local mp

Do you think if I apply for the same school that turned us down through the LA I'll have a chance ? They didn't ask us to fill forms,just took some information about dds options and the school she went to

[dillyduck]

If this is a state school and they have a place they can't refuse to give it to her.

They can if she falls within their managed move criteria, likely to be behaviour and absence. They can if they are selective.

Have you actually applied and completed an application form? You need to formally apply if you haven't.

[LadyConstanceDeCoverlet]

No idea whether you'll have a chance by formally applying through the LA to the school that turned you down, it depends whether they're genuinely full or not - but you have nothing to lose by trying. That does however also depend whether it is a state maintained school or an academy.

[dillyduck]

As she is not attending school and has not be taken off role she risks being a persistent absentee and then a school can refuse a place, or rather it will go to a local panel. You need to get her off role at her last school. You need to apply formally for the new school.


If she has a child in need plan then I am shocked that her last school have not been chasing and have not involved social services. You need to involve social services as she is a vulnerable child without a school place. At the moment sounds like she is a vulnerable child missing in education, her last school should be all over this.

You do not need to do anything about checking numbers or going to the LA. You need to apply for a place. If you apply and they refuse then you do the other steps. At this point they have not refused a place as you have not applied.

[dillyduck]

roll not role obviously

[TellAStory]

For school applications you will need proof of permanent address - are you currently living in the catchment area of the school you want your dd to attend? If not you are unlikely to be offered a place. It is the responsibility of the LA you are living in to find your dd a school place. Put everything in writing and keep a paper trail.

[prh47bridge]

They can if she falls within their managed move criteria, likely to be behaviour and absence

Not true. The Admissions Code specifically prohibits schools taking into account previous attendance, behaviour, attitude or achievement. The only exception is that a school can refuse to admit a child who has been permanently excluded twice in the previous 2 years.

The process for managed moves is a little different in that the parents don't usually formally apply to the receiving school for a place and therefore the school can refuse to admit for these reasons. However, once the parents apply for a place it is an in year application, not a managed move and the rules in the Admissions Code must be followed.

As she is not attending school and has not be taken off role she risks being a persistent absentee and then a school can refuse a place

No they cannot. The Admissions Code specifically prohibits schools taking previous attendance into account when deciding whether or not to admit a child.

They can if they are selective

Depends. If it has a formal pass mark for the admission exam and only admits pupil who achieve that score it can refuse to admit despite having places available. However, if it simply uses the admission exam to put pupils in priority order, admitting those with the highest score (a fairly common approach) it must admit anyone who applies if it has a place available.

asked them if they would provide transport for Dd to get to school and they said I will get fined for everyday that she is not in school

I am not clear which LA you were talking to at this point. If it is the LA for your daughter's current school they are partly correct. It is not their responsibility to provide transport. That is down to the LA where you are currently living. They must provide free transport for your daughter unless they are able to come up with a place for her nearer to your current home.

However, whichever LA this is, they are talking rubbish when they threaten you with fines. The legislation is clear that you cannot be fined if the school is not within walking distance of home (3 miles) and the LA has failed to provide transport or a place at a school nearer home. If they say this again refer them to section 444(4) of the Education Act 1996.

Do you think if I apply for the same school that turned us down through the LA I'll have a chance

If the school you want doesn't have a place available it won't make any difference. However, you need to check what the LA says about in-year admissions. Some tell you to apply direct to schools, some tell you to apply to the LA. If this LA wants you to apply through them you won't get a place anywhere until you do so.

[Unluckyirish]

Thank you everyone - a lot to take in

This isn't a managed move,never been excluded,suspended,isolation etc

Not in the catchment area for the school tat couldn't offer her a place but they have students who live where we currently are

It's not an academy or selective school

Can't get a space in the area we are currently living in either

Old school won't remove her from the register until she is enrolled at another schoolX

[sonlypuppyfat]

What's red sky?

[LIZS]

Your best chance is to pressure the LA of where you are currently living to come up with a place. It may well mean putting a second move on hold until after Gcses.

[Unluckyirish]

The la says to fill out a form and send it to the school directly . We went to the school but were never asked to fill out forms.

We really can't put the second move on hold(for personal reasons it wouldn't be suitable for Dd ) -and we are only renting this house short term until I find one in the other area to buy.

[confuugled1]

Maybe they were being deliberately cagey or obtuse or just inefficient or forgetful by not mentioning that you needed to fill in a proper application form rather than just discussing going there with them. It might just be that because they are a part of the system, it's so obvious to them that they need a proper application form that they forget that to most people it's a brand new and puzzling process that they don't know their way around, so it never occurs to them that you would do anything but fill in a form in order to apply, while to you it never occurs to you that you need to fill in a detailed form as you assume that they will tell you everything you need to do as you've spoken to them, expressed an interest in moving things forward and they've said they'll have space as soon as the building is ready which you take as a sort of offer there and then.

Armed with the facts is it possible to ask them straight out for an application form, regardless of whether or not they have spaces - because once you have a form in, they can either say yes, in which case yippee all is solved. Or they say no - in which case, you have something concrete to show that you are trying to get a space, it has been turned down, you are (or aren't!) on the waiting list at position xx, and hopefully that should trigger something else happening to help you.

Good luck again!

[Unluckyirish]

Thank you confuggled DD wants me to appeal but I've had an unsuccessful appeal when she was going into year 7 so I'm not really sure what I need to say apart from her containing her GCSE options.