To be genuinely baffled by what seems like a growing absence of basic spelling skills?

[LadyStoicIsBack]

I'm not asking from a judgmental standpoint before I get flamed but rather a very genuine 'I just don't get it' kind of way...

I went to a bog standard inner city primary school and before I left, so age 11, knew the difference between words such as you're, your, there, their, and they're (alongside aisle as opposed to isle as another example); yet all of those being used incorrectly seems to be increasingly commonplace. And that confuses me as I know my primary education was nothing special and very def. know I do not know all I'd like to yet I'm (maybe incorrectly?) assuming that all others born into same system would have had the same basic education and thus would know the difference* between their own their/they're/there??? And no, I very definitely did not have any fucking kind of support 'additional parental support' so I don't think that can be the variable either.

So has basic Primary education got worse, or is it I'm just getting old or something and thus noticing it more? Genuinely curious as to other's equally anecdotal observations or their professional experience of this.

[*I'm obviously not referring to anyone for whom English is a second language, nor anyone like DS3 who has SEN]

[Renniehorta]

I think that the theory that we see raw, unedited text now, whereas we did not in the past is right. When I was teaching I remember clearly the appalling standard of literacy revealed in sick notes.

I frequently read below the line comments in French and Spanish newspapers. I have noticed that the errors made in French are worse than in English. Possibly because written French is even further removed from spoken French than is the case with English. On the other hand errors are less frequent in Spanish. Whether this is related to Spanish being more phonetic I am not sure. Spanish spelling is reviewed in the light of changes in pronunciation.

Most of the spelling errors commented on are in fact homophones.That is words that sound the same but have different meanings. This is exactly the problem that French speakers have. So whilst poor spelling is an issue it is also about a lack of knowledge of English grammar. If you understand that you know which their, there or they're to use.

[ArgyMargy]

It is very much the fashion to insist that correct written (or spoken) English is of no importance whatsoever. However I think people would be surprised if newspapers and other printed media, novels etc started to look like MN and FB. It's so much harder to read and understand posts filled with spelling and grammar mistakes and autocorrects. Why is it so hard to go back and change silly autocorrects?

[LunaLoveg00d]

I did the bulk of my education during the 80s and traditional grammar was very lacking. We were never taught about subjects and objects in sentences, for example. When I started to study foreign languages I had to learn it all from scratch.However, I did get a very firm grounding in the BASICS like there/their/they're, the apostrophe and your/you're. Spelling mistakes were marked, not let go. It was drummed into us that exams would be marked down if you had consistently poor spelling and grammar.

I think the reason that people appear to spell poorly now is that we see it - 25 years ago there were no internet forums and if you wanted to discuss parenting with a group you'd do it face to face. You wouldn't know if the person you were speaking to could use your/you're properly as you wouldn't see it written down. Even subtle errors such as confusing been and being may be missed due to the speaker's accent. Or could have / could of - say it quickly, and you don't perhaps pick it up. Things like the greengrocer's apostrophe (apple's, orange's, grape's) are as old as the hills though.

I also think it has become "cool" to be a bit thick and uneducated. Teenagers now are being brought up on a diet of reality TV, talent shows and "celebrity culture" where you have people like the cast of TOWIE and the Kardashians who are famous for ..... well, I'm not sure what they're famous for but it's certainly not their intellect.

[PNGirl]

I learned to spell from devouring every book I could get my hands on from the age of 4 - even now I read 100 books a year. I'm 31. I also agree that my cousin who is 22 is used to seeing all his mates write "could of went" on MSN messenger from the early 00s and now Facebook, so thinks this is acceptable use of English.

[Butteredparsnips]

Luna I'm inclined to agree with you about the impact of celeb culture. Our children are receiving a message that it is cool to be thick.

insan no I don't remember doing a scheme like that - though I wish we had. Does anyone remember ITA? What a daft idea that was. I joined a school mid way through infants that taught ITA and although I didn't have to learn it because I was already reading, the hymn sheets in assembly etc were all written in ITA. In effect I did have to learn ITA as a sort of second language, and even then, aged maybe 6 or 7 the text looked "wrong" to me.

[Stratter5]

I'm 48, I recall plenty of spelling tests, but very little in the way of grammar tests, or instruction. I do worry about my grammar, I know it's not exactly brilliant, and I personally find that embarrassing.

[insan1tyscartching]

Lucy I've no idea why he never grasped the difference. I have told him and showed him for years (he wasn't corrected in school though, which I think would have been the best way for him to learn) and yet he still makes the same mistakes. Its and It's are another pair he doesn't get right either. When I have mentioned it at school I was always told, "we're not marking against that criteria and he has met the objectives" even if, with the wrong grammar, what he had written didn't make sense

[LikeDylanInTheMovies]

So no, I'm not convinced that people are less educated now than they were in the past.

I'm not convinced either. The idea that there was some sort of golden era in which people could spell and use punctuation perfectly is something of a myth. I suspect that what is happening is that more people are using written English in public forums than ever before and written communication is becoming a less specialist function.

When people talk about beautifully written and perfectly punctuated text all rendered in beautiful copperplate being the norm in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, it drives me mad! They are usually referring to handwritten documents written by professional clerks whose very reason for being was to record information in a consistent and legible manner and are not representative of the population as a whole. It would be the equivalent of people 100 years hence, claiming that ordinary people in the 2010s had hugely advanced IT skills and using a programme written by a specialist software developer as evidence. If you look at the letters written by ordinary working class people of the same period, you'll see something that can give even the most illegible Facebook posting a run for its money: incomplete sentences, phonetic spellings and stray apostrophes abound. That's from a self selecting group who felt confident enough to write.

My gran left school at 14 and claimed that she'd written nothing more than a shopping list from that day onwards. She communicated with people in person (never moved from her hometown) or on the telephone. Throughout her working life she only held unskilled manual jobs, so never had to use her very limited literacy skills.

Her spelling, punctuation and grammar was every bit as bad, if not worse than, than the modern day examples listed in other posts and I don't think she was atypical in this respect.

However the rise of social media and an increased reliance on IT and recordkeeping in the work place means that people who in the past would not have needed to use written English extensively, now do so and do so in public forums where it is subject to public scrutiny. Think about it: before the internet, where would you have seen the unedited, unexpurgated written English of a stranger?


I would also argue that what is happening is democratisation of written English for public consumption. It has shifted from the preserve of specialist scriveners, clerks and secretaries to something that many of us do.




people who would have previously When we see handwriting I've been looking at records kept by nineteenth century clerks and there's a fair few howlers in those records and these are

[LikeDylanInTheMovies]

Please ignore the last paragraph, tis a cut and copy error.

[OhtoblazeswithElvira]

Argh until this thread I was unaware of "are" for "our"

[VenusRising]

My experience of RP is that along with spellings and grammar taught by rote, we had daily pronounciation classes. We learned how to speak, so others could understand what we said.

It helps tremendously with spelling, and public speaking.

If someone asks for waaah-ah or even warter instead of water, it's not difficult to see what the problem might be with spellings!

There are no class assumptions in RP IME.
Back in the Middle Ages when I was at my regional school, we were taught how to speak with RP, taught how to read, and taught how to spell and make sense in three languages so we could be understood.
I attended a state school (and not a posh one).

I'm not sure that the social media driven democratisation of literacy serves those in the population who will become "professionals". Is it really accecptable for a court clerk or judge (imin dawig, sat onis bench) to be illiterate? Or a doctor, or nurse?

I agree likeDylan, poor, or low, levels of literacy are now more available to see, due to social media etc, but for that low level to define the norm is unacceptable to me. I don't see myself 'gettin dahn wif da kids' anytime soon.

I also cringe when I see there /their /they're and our /are mistakes creep into official documents... and let's not mention the plague swarms of apostrophies, or even the teachers' spellings in my dcs' school reports, as I shall be (sat ) here all day!

As Maya Angelou said, I rise

[SlinkyB]

MY EYES!!

Never seen want, instead of was not...never mind the other errors

[HeyRobot]

RP can only get you so far though - though being an example.

[QOD]

The worst one I see endlessly is 'are' for 'our'

🔪

[cheminotte]

Yanbu. I sort of expect it on here and FB. But it is more and more frequent even in official publications. I belong to a professional organisation that holds regional networking events. One of these was called - Your Hired! and was listed as such for several weeks until recently I've noticed it has changed to You're Hired. The title will have been decided by the local branch but head office does publicity. Why did no-one notice for so long?
I went to school in the 80s but had a lot of parental support, have studied languages and have taught English as a foreign language so can explain when less and fewer is appropriate not just know when to use which instinctively.

[Arkwright]

I haven't read the whole thread but the one I keep seeing is he's for his. Tommy went to he's dad for the day.

[NotCitrus]

I think speed of production of publications is part of it - back when every change had to be drawn on by hand and typed up and then proof copies circulated, chances were that someone in the process would pick up spelling mistakes. Now someone whips something up and manager says 'fine' and that's it - essentially drafts are being unleashed on the public.

I went to unusual primary schools so I'm one of few people my age who got taught spelling and grammar a lot, but there were people it just didn't sink in with. And also lots of people now knowingly use 'wrong' grammar just like txtspk.

I asked my lodger once why she persisted with sending me texts like 'are boiler aint working, can u fixit hun?' when she could write perfectly good English on job apps etc. She said if she spelt 'our' and 'you' it looked all formal and she didn't want to sound stuck-up in a text.

[CuboidalSlipshoddy]

English is the only language that has the concept of spelling bees, as other languages spell words as they are spoken

Yeah. Like French has eau and aux. And cent, sang, sens and sans. Lac and laque. Mer, maire and mère. And endless other homophones.

And that's before we start on languages which obviously can't spell words as they are spoken, as large parts of the language don't even attempt to represent such as Japanese. Where children have to learn 1006 Kanji symbols in elementary school, which have no relation to how they are spoken whatsoever.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyōiku_kanji

[janey77]

FastWindow generally about 8/9/10 ....the number of them who don't actually know their own birthdays or how to write it properly shocks me even more though!

[BluePitchFork]

I blame phonics tbh.
I don't quite 'get' how they help learning to read/write such an unphonetic languague that is english (especially with the many different regional pronunciations).
am one of THOSE parents who correct notes from the teachers with red pen

[80sMum]

I agree that people under 45 seem to have a very poor grasp of grammar and spelling compared with the previous generation.

I was quite taken aback recently when reading an applicant's personal statement on her application form. The person was applying for the position of Head of English; she had an English degree and a post graduate teaching qualification, yet much of her personal statement (which is intended to "sell" the candidate to the employer) didn't make sense and wasn't correct English.

I was pretty shocked by the poor quality of her writing, to be honest, especially in view of the role she was applying for.

[BluePitchFork]

there is a reason why we give important stuff to our polish colleague for proofreading. her english is impeccable

[wizzywig]

My parents were very strict. The only place we were allowed to go to was the library. We would sneak fiction into the house (we were only allowed to read serious studying/ educational books). So thats why im sort of ok with reading and writing. It allowed me to escape my boring life.

[CamelsAndMaus]

blue I'm with you on the phonics. I can see how they can assist at a beginner level or with those who struggle (I have been anecdotally told by teaching friends that they are designed to bring up the base level of Reception/KS1 classes). They would probably help fantastically for German, but then you get the joy of explaining feminine, masculine and neuter ;)

Not sure who made the comment but:

English is the only language that has the concept of spelling bees, as other languages spell words as they are spoken

Is certainly incorrect here. In DS's school the children do spelling bees (is that American concept sneaking into UK schools now?) in both Hindi and Arabic.

Well DS doesn't as we chose not to make him take Hindi (it was optional)and he still claims he doesn't know any Arabic after 4 years here (we suspect that he knows Arabic as much as English, just that they haven't released Minecraft in it yet).

Rote learning/repetitive verbal spelling of language and every other subject is absolutely huge in a lot of the Asian cultures we live here with.

Children are often made to do several hours of extra work after school every evening - reciting times tables, verbs, spellings, chemical symbols, maths equations etc.