To think that grammar school places should not be allocated just on the basis of an exam

[ReallyTired]

A super selective school should be a specialist school for the ultra bright. At the moment wealthy parents are able to give their children an unfair advantage over working class children by paying for tutoring. Grammar schools are no longer a leg up for bright working class kids. Many children who attend grammar schools are not super gifted.

If we are going to have super selective schools then we need to make sure that places go to the right children. I do think that an eleven plus exam is useful to weed out those who do not stand a chance with coping with a faster pace of learning. However such a major decision should not be solely based on an exam

Maybe the work that a child produces in class, previous test results or school recommendation should be considered. Maybe as a final stage a child should be assessed by an educational psychologist to be sure that the child is ultra bright rather than hot housed. Some universities take into account the secondary school a student has attended. I feel that grammar schools should look at the background of the applicant and their school.

A superselective school should have a curriculum which is tougher than the national curriculum. Children who cannot keep pace should be transferred to a mainstream school.

[noblegiraffe]

Teacher assessment = subjective assessment. Notoriously unreliable.

The idea of an interview where you ask primary school kids about world affairs to assess their intelligence is a sure-fire way to select the kids whose parents have time/inclination to sit around the dinner table with them talking about politics.

[AppleSetsSail]

Teachers should nominate who goes to grammar schools, they're best positioned to see who belongs there. An administrative nightmare, but I expect it probably already is.

[BertrandRussell]

"Teachers should nominate who goes to grammar schools, they're best positioned to see who belongs there. An administrative nightmare, but I expect it probably already is."

I can see the Mumsnet threads now!

[AppleSetsSail]

I can see the Mumsnet threads now!

Outrage, I'm sure.

This is sort of the way it works in the private sector at the moment; a selective secondary school weighs the school's view heavily.

[AppleSetsSail]

I should say, weighs the primary school's view heavily.

[SaturdaySurprise]

So overstretched primary school teachers need to do extra assessments and reports on the children? Overstretched state secondary school teachers have to spend time interviewing children?

Lots of children are tutored and don't get into grammar schools. Tutoring isn't magic and children still need to be able to work out the answers themselves. They don't have teachers or parents or tutors standing over them. (During the SATS the teachers are allowed to read questions out to the children). The 11+ exams still select bright children.

Yes, the children who get in have had tutoring or some exam preparation, but I would never send my child into an exam unprepared. I also think it is good preparation for the work ethic needed at grammar school.

[AppleSetsSail]

Why should a teacher need to asses or interview their own pupils? They should know which are the bright sparks.

[Lurkedforever1]

My suggestion about interviews wasn't for dinner table type conversation. I meant more questions to guage raw ability/ intelligence.

[noblegiraffe]

Some very bright children are not very good at communicating.

[AppleSetsSail]

Lots of children are tutored and don't get into grammar schools. Tutoring isn't magic and children still need to be able to work out the answers themselves. They don't have teachers or parents or tutors standing over them. (During the SATS the teachers are allowed to read questions out to the children). The 11+ exams still select bright children.

It's all still a varnished snapshot of a child. Why not draw on an unvarnished continuum?

[Scarydinosaurs]

apple the teacher knows their best students BECAUSE of assessing them.

[LikeDylanInTheMovies]

So what sort of question would do that Lurked?

[RhodaBull]

Headteacher recommendation is ridiculous. What if you have a school full of bright children - are all of them candidates? What if you have a school full of not very able children? Would a mediocre candidate get a recommendation simply by virtue of being less mediocre than all the others?

In the time of assisted places, eldest dsis got a place at a girls' trust day school partly on headteacher recommendation. The head could only nominate one child. Next dsis did not get a place. The headteacher apologised to my mother and said that he had no choice because the other girl under consideration was the dd of the head of the pta (!). Dm was flabbergasted even for those non-MN times, but in those days whatever the injustice one took it on the chin.

[clicknclack]

I have two gifted children, one does really well on tests, one doesn't. At primary school neither did stella or outstanding work because they both had special needs and both were bored. My older son went into selective classes at fifteen where he did much much better because he had to work harder to do well. His test scores went up then too. His teachers knew he was really capable but his work would have not reflected it at the time. It would have been as rough on my older son to not get in the selected classes because his school work wasn't reflecting his abilities.

There were kids in his class who were at the top of the class because they were extremely hard workers and conscientious but they were working at capacity. IMO it would have been a mistake to move them to a selective school just because they had a good portfolio.

There isn't a perfect system.

[LisaMed1]

Just to point out - I took a version of the 11+ back in the stone age, came top of the borough and won a scholarship to a private school. I couldn't go because the headteacher wouldn't sign the papers for a girl. He made sure that I went into a lower set class at high school and got me placed in remedial English class (had reading age of 14 at time). He loathed that a girl aced the test and did his best to sabotage me.

I'd be fucked under your system just as much as I was fucked under the old system. I'm not saying that frantically coaching kids is the way, but relying purely on a school isn't either.

[ReallyTired]

Assessing intelligence is not easy. There are cultural bias in the eleven plus, especially verbal reasoning. For example some years ago heard about a Greek child who was convinced that cabbage belonged in salad.

We haven't yet had a prime minster to attended a comprehensive. Theresa May is the first PM since John major who attended a state school. Private school kids dominate top jobs in the uk. How do we develop our most talented (rather than hot housed) children?

Why does it matter? Well the top 2% generate jobs for the rest of us. They will find the cure for cancer, become our next generation of politicians, diplomats, business leaders etc. As a country we are shooting ourselves in the foot not preparing the most able as well as we can.

Both Eton and Harrow have scholarships for low income state educated children. It would be interesting to know their selection criteria.

[LisaMed1]

cabbage belongs in a salad - I consider coleslaw a salad.

[BertrandRussell]

Cabbage can belong in a salad. That's why questions like that don't work.

[LisaMed1]

Sorry, my last post was unnecessarily bitchy.

It's just that it shows an interview can trip people up. Ds had delayed speech (nothing much). They tried testing him for intelligence and asked him (age @ two ish) to show making a cup of tea. He'd never seen one made. Weird assumptions and odd families mean that interviews can have weak spots. Nothing is perfect. It's just aiming for the least imperfect.

[BertrandRussell]

And a 10 year old might well never have had a salad, with or without cabbage.........

[ChicagoBull]

i would never send my child into an exam unprepared

Yy. You are not helping your child by having an anti tutoring stance. It's called preparation. I don't believe you can tutor a child who isn't bright through the 11+

[Scarydinosaurs]

chicago it's not about having an anti tutoring stance, it's about families who cannot afford a tutor/have parents unable to tutor having children NOT passing the 11+ when families who can afford the tutor prepare their children who aren't as able, and then pass and need tuition throughout their time in the school, when a child who had natural ability would have been more successful with just the teaching provided.

[ChicagoBull]

eg eating lunch they speak in several languages to pass the salt

Aww is that really hot housing? I'd call that fun - we play uno in different languages

[ChicagoBull]

Dc are FSM but I care enough to do educational things with them, not just dinner on their laps in front of tv

[gillybeanz]

I think they should only be allocated on an exam. One that can't be tutored for though. That would make them fair like intended originally.
If you are super bright and pass the exam, you get to go. If you aren't that bright and don't pass the exam then you don't.
Plenty of other schools, and kids that don't go are no different to those that do, just not as bright.
None of ours were bright enough and we don't have any round here.