To think if you cannot add one half to one quarter you really should not be in teaching

[mrgrouper]

I am starting teacher training in September and so have joined some teacher training Facebook groups. We all have to pass professional skills tests in literacy and numeracy. The tests are pretty easy but there is a mental arithmetic test that a lot of trainees are panicking on. A woman has posted that she is doing the mock test and it claims one half plus one quarter is three quarters and she has no idea how the examiners had worked this out. She is not training to be a maths teacher but surely all teachers should know basic maths. I knew this stuff aged 7.

[LunaLoveg00d]

Maybe entry requirements are higher in Scotland but Glasgow Uni demands a minimum of BBB at A level for its BEd programme, and that one of the A levels has to be English.

www.gla.ac.uk/undergraduate/degrees/education/#/entryrequirements

Strathclyde Uni is the same, but doesn't demand the English A-level, just minimum GCSE passes in English Lit, English language and Maths at B. They also say they prefer social science subjects for the passes.

Not terribly easy to get in, so anyone with those passes should be able to manage the Literacy and Numeracy tests. We have had one experience with a very poorly qualified probationer teacher (first year after passing her degree) whose spelling was awful, organisation was zero and the children didn't seem to progress at all that year. I think nearly every parent in the class complained about her.

[CuboidalSlipshoddy]

one of the A levels has to be English

And we wonder why maths teaching in primary schools is in trouble.

(elsewhere) they also say they prefer social science subjects for the passes.

And we wonder why maths teaching in primary schools is in trouble.

[LunaLoveg00d]

Indeed - I'm surprised they don't insist on Maths or a Science subject for A level. Although in Scotland children typically do 5 Highers (qualifications used to apply to uni) and nearly everyone does English, Maths plus 3 others.

[CuboidalSlipshoddy]

There are all sorts of reasons why people don't do English A Level, few of them to do with literacy. It's a literature qualification mostly involving close reading of novels and plays (yes, there are English Language A Levels but (a) they are rare and (b) they are mostly linguistics).

One common reason people don't do A Level maths is that they don't like it, haven't been well taught and regard it as boring and difficult.

Many people with STEM qualifications read books. Few people with non-STEM qualifications have maths textbooks at their bedside. It's quite rare for someone to claim that reading is an overrated skill. It's absolutely routine for people, including teachers, to ask "what's the point of maths, I've got a calculator".

The relationship between "English and doesn't have A Level English" and "Maths and doesn't have A Level Maths" aren't the same. A teacher training course which actively discriminates against people with STEM qualifications is just perpetuating this.

[derxa]

Indeed - I'm surprised they don't insist on Maths or a Science subject for A level. Although in Scotland children typically do 5 Highers (qualifications used to apply to uni) and nearly everyone does English, Maths plus 3 others. This is the thing which puzzles me. I went through the Sottish education system. In my opinion it is a far rounder education. I didn't encounter this 'I'm no good at maths' attitude much. I did a PGCE at Homerton, Cambridge and the students in that course were equally literate and numerate. We were the first to do the Skills Tests.
All that aside there have been a lot of goady teacher bashing threads on this site recently.

[Emmaroos]

YANBU. That's appalling, but not surprising. I used to teach in London (I am not from England) and I was constantly shocked at how poor some teachers basic literacy, numeracy and grammar was. Personally I think everyone should have to do maths and English to school leaving age. In most countries these (the language of the country, not English per se) are basic requirements to get into a university course.

[Emmaroos]

In light of the post above mine I should say that most of the teachers I worked with were very competent in the basics and indeed many were inspirationally good teachers. The issue in England and Wales is that the proportion of teachers with sub-standard literacy and numeracy and who routinely speak grammatically incorrect English is far too high. The skills test is a step in the right direction although it is still not of a high enough standard IMHO!

[MaQueen]

I am very concerned that only grades C for English and Maths GCSE are required for BEds? I that is setting the bar far too low, frankly.

And then only very mediocre grades at A Level too (though Scotland's seem higher).

Most of the teachers at our DDs primary would have been educated in the 80s when there was a much more laid back attitude toward SPAG. I wasn't always overly impressed with some of the letters sent home from school on occasion and had to wrestle a pen off DH as he went to correct them and send them back

Standards dramatically improved when a retired grammar school teacher started working part time in the school office

I think the teachers had to do a lot of cramming when the new SPAG SATs papers came out. And I do know that there wasn't a teacher in the school capable of teaching Level 6 Maths, so DD2 had to travel to another school for her SATs prep.

And yet the school was rated Outstanding by Ofsted and came within the top 25 nationally, for small schools.

[derxa]

And I do know that there wasn't a teacher in the school capable of teaching Level 6 Maths, so DD2 had to travel to another school for her SATs prep
That's awful.

[MaQueen]

Actually dexra it might have been that they couldn't spare the time for just 2 pupils (only DD2 and another child Sat the Level 6 paper).

[CuboidalSlipshoddy]

I am very concerned that only grades C for English and Maths GCSE

The worrying part about that is that you can get a C by taking the Foundation Tier paper, and therefore to not have even studied the full GCSE syllabus.

[derxa]

Actually dexra it might have been that they couldn't spare the time for just 2 pupils (only DD2 and another child Sat the Level 6 paper).
I used to teach a mixed age class (rural primary) I had two pupils who were actually Level 7 in old money. So Levels 3-7 in one class. They did very well.

[MaQueen]

That's dreadful cuboidal

[MaQueen]

Sounds like you're pretty decent at maths then dexra

[derxa]

Sounds like you're pretty decent at maths then dexra
I'm an English specialist but discovered that I loved teaching maths. Much easier than literacy imo.

[Scarydinosaurs]

mac I agree, but I have learnt to never voice that opinion amongst my teaching colleagues as I quickly found a lot of them had Cs and took offence 🙈

[TinklyLittleLaugh]

My DD's school experimented with a few different maths boards to find out the easiest one to pass. I'm pretty convinced that DD is the maths equivalent of dyslexic; she has no grasp of even basic arithmetic. We got some past papers and I basically taught her how to recognise types of questions and answer them to a set formula.

She got a B.

No way could my DD teach maths to a class of key stage 2 kids, she genuinely struggles with my 10 year old's maths homework.

I don't think a C at GCSE is an adequate test, I hope the maths test student teachers have to do is more difficult.

[limitedperiodonly]

She sounds crap, OP.

I'd also say that people who regularly make mistakes in spelling, punctuation, the use of grammar and of capital letters shouldn't pontificate on standards of literacy unless to confess that their grasp is shaky and could do with the intervention of a good teacher.

I'm horrified that such people have seemingly been employed as teaching assistants and even regard themselves as superior to qualified English teachers.

Yet this happens all the time, or so I'm told. What can you do to stop these appalling and deluded people?

[Vigbymumparis]

even in my top rated, pushy grammar school, there was a lot of 'teaching to the test' in many subjects. I remember myself and friends being told, after asking genuinely relevant questions, 'no, it's not on the syllabus'.

Got that T-shirt! However, depressingly, I was usually the only one asking those questions, with the rest of the class sighing at me "wasting time" again! It put me off education so badly I really screwed up my A-Levels first time round.

[Idliketobeabutterfly]

Yikes. If you think of it as a cake it's quite easy.

[hefzi]

A friend of mine has recently failed the maths test, apparently by 1 mark, and isn't allowed to resit for 2 years. She wants to teach her subject - in which she has a First and also a Distinction at MA - at secondary (and preferably 6th Form). I do feel sorry for her (think she has a B at GCSE) especially since you can apparently do a PGCE with a 2:ii - but if them's the rules, them's the rules. I was taught by a history teacher who hadn't heard of the Boer War, which you'd have thought would have been a bigger problem - but I was also at public school, where I believe (certainly in those days) any form of teacher training is optional