to think she can't smell and it's my grandad's fault

[GrumpyMcGrumpyFace]

DD (7) has always said that she can't smell. To be honest I've never really thought much about it thinking that it was a developmental thing and she would start to recognise smells as she got older. Only she hasn't. When ever I ask if she can smell a strong smell, her answer is no and there is no reaction from her. She never comments on smells. Last time we went to see the GP I mentioned it to him. He kind of laughed it off saying that she must be able to as if she wasn't able to smell she wouldn't be able to taste and she does taste different things.

I always knew that my mum couldn't smell and thought it was because of an accident that she had when she was a girl. However, I found out today that my granddad couldn't smell either. He received a facial injury in WW2 that left him partially sighted and without a sense of smell.

So, AIBU to think that there has been an intergenerational transmission of trauma which has meant that my daughter isn't able to smell or has a very poor sense of smell?

and

AIBU not to do anything about it because it doesn't have any affect on her life in anyway, although it would be good to know for future reference.

[GarlicShake]

I did my PhD in epigenetics in the 90's, so I wouldn't say epigenetics is an emerging science.

I guess it depends how old you are [joke] I'd say it's an emerging science. I don't think anyone can give us a definitive list of things that are the result of epigenetics, tell us how they happen and accurately predict consequences - yet.

Of course OP's familial anosmia is going to be genetic; I didn't suggest it had anything to do with 'intergenerational transmission of trauma'.

Since you're an expert, though, can I ask you something? We've evolved with certain amounts of 'knowledge', haven't we - from how to walk and communicate, to things like revulsion for the smells of rotting meat & stale water. Actually a huge mass of things when you think about it. This suggests to me (not a geneticist!) that learning can be, and is, genetically encoded.

We know that DNA constantly changes as we live our lives and things happen.

I would think it's not such a stretch to imagine that significant trauma can trigger an alteration that's passed down genetically. Perhaps even things that are not traumatic, but exceptionally beneficial.

You don't have to answer, obvs. I find it interesting for various reasons.

[manicmij]

Perhaps she has some kind of problem with her sinuses. Worth getting checked over. Could do some home tests of smells eg leaving smelly foodstuffs in the kitchen or spray air freshener really heavily just to evidence to the Doc her reactions.

May not be much of a problem when she is young not being able to smell but when older could lead to problems. My sister was always burning things on the stove - had lost her sense of smell due to infection.

[PaulAnkaTheDog]

I'm not convinced that there is such thing as a 'basic understanding of epigenetics' since it's such an emerging and contested field.

You realise how much of a dick that makes you sound given your previous statement, right? Anyone who has looked at the basic idea of epigenetics would know that the initial post on this thread was daft. You tried to almost mock those contesting the op's idea with your 'smug' comment. Are you just trying to sound smart talking about something you don't quite grasp?

[RumbleMum]

I'm anosmic and I have a pretty ok sense of taste (can tell the difference between chopped parsley and chopped coriander in a blind taste test, for example).

There are sniff tests that ENT specialists use that will check whether she has a sense of smell. As the Guardian article linked up thread said, sometimes it can be treated but the earlier the better. I left it far too late to get treatment, but quite frankly find it quite helpful not to be able to smell with two young boys around (though I do get paranoid about my armpits).

I'd push for a referral - maybe another GP would be more sympathetic?

[glassgarden]

there have been experiments which suggest that trauma can be passed from parent to child via the genes
eg
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25156510
www.nature.com/news/fearful-memories-haunt-mouse-descendants-1.14272
articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/08/14/hereditary-trauma.aspx
www.entrepreneur.com/article/249952

[stareatthetvscreen]

i would hazard a guess that s there is a family history re sense of smell problems it may well be that there is a genetic (? ) weakness in this area hence the trauma causing loss of smell

my dd was born with nasal issues and it was pretty scary how little the hospital drs/surgeons knew about this.the gps knew nothing about it at all

good luck op - get a second opinion :)

[stareatthetvscreen]

as not s

[grumpysquash3]

Garlic
I am mid-40s and epigenetics has been around at least 25 years as funded research :)

DNA is definitely affected by environment. That's why cigarette smoke causes cancer, for example. But it only affects the DNA in the cells that the smoke touches, it doesn't change DNA in all cells in your body simultaneously.....

Learning is not specifically genetic, in the sense that if I am bilingual in French, my DC won't be naturally bilingual or French speakers. A predisposition to be good at languages is most likely a 'good' combination of tens or even hundreds of genes. Similarly, you get tall families, intelligent families, musical families, artistic families, good-at-maths families (not all members of the family may be blessed with the lucky genes). Some of this is undoubtedly genetic, but environment plays a big part too. It's easier to become musical if your parents are.

FWIW, genetically, olfactory (smell) receptors are really complex, with a series of hundreds of similar genes stretched out on a chromosome. To lose the function of all of them, you would probably have to have a chromosomal deletion, or at least have an altered locus control region (bit that regulates gene expression). These would both be inheritable. If you just lost one or two receptors you really wouldn't notice, and anyway there is variation, which is why some people smell a particular smell as being very strong whereas for others it is mild.

The revulsion of rotting things I can't explain from a genetics point of view. It is behavioural, yet inborn. It's like bird migration, or salmon swimming back to their place of birth, or smiling.

[JeffreySadsacIsUnwell]

I couldn't smell at all as a child. No particular reason why, AFAIK, though I did have horrendous nose bleeds and had my nose cauterised at least four times.

I broke my nose a couple of times late teens/early adulthood (and had my nose cautised again each time...). Bizarrely, my sense of smell then developed. I don't think it's as good as others' sense of smell - my DC come running down the stairs incredibly excited because they've smelt pasta or rice cooking, for example. I can smell garlic bread, but not tomato sauce and most definitely not carbs like pasta or rice even if I bury my face in the pan. Beige food just does not smell, surely?

I did, however, smell our fusebox burning in time to call the fire brigade. I wouldn't have been able to do that as a child. I can now smell vomit and shit too, which is rather more of a downside.

Not sure this is helpful to the OP, but I guess it shows it's possible to suddenly gain a sense that you're born without. Def not subconscious in my case, I was desperate to smell perfumes. I hated the taste of salt and vinegar crisps but I couldn't smell them at all; I know I used to wonder whether it was worth the risk and desperately sniff a crisp, then pop it into my mouth thinking it was ready salted... Now I can smell them if I hold the bowl to my nose (but not if, say, I walk into a room or someone opens a packet next to me).

[KimmySchmidtsSmile]

How would you know if she has a severe deficit?

She is seven. So, by now, she should have the language to be able to tell you whether or not she can differentiate between salty, sweet, sour, bitter. She should be able to name you her favourite foods/drinks and you can then note if there is texture she likes or flavour. If she cannot do the taste tests at all or finds foods/drinks so bland that she has no favourite, then that's a severe deficit. You say she says she cannot smell and does not smell things you do. Testing that hypothesis with strong scents like coffee, bacon, freshly bleached bathroom, petrol in forecourt, tar on road etc: if all those fail to evoke a response then anosmia could be a factor.
That said, I am as ignorant as your doctor in having linked smell and taste so closely when there are at least two posters who claim to have the latter without the former. Having only had anosmia once in my life and thankfully short term (six weeks) I could not taste at all and had to rely on textures/force myself to eat.

I hope you make progress soon xx

[MrsTerryPratchett]

The revulsion of rotting things I can't explain from a genetics point of view. It is behavioural, yet inborn. It's like bird migration, or salmon swimming back to their place of birth, or smiling.

I should imagine that from the POV of 'why' genetically it's pretty obvious. People who found sweet tastes attractive and rotten smells unattractive lived to reproduce. No learning required. The 'how' of mechanism, I wouldn't know.

[basicallyobviously]

OP there was a great Radio 4 programme about this, definitely listen to it

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b076cg3n

[GarlicShake]

Thanks, informants :)

[KimmySchmidtsSmile]

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgust

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.salon.com/2011/07/24/disgust_interview/&ved=0ahUKEwjp39_07fPMAhWI7RQKHUJACwsQFggbMAA&usg=AFQjCNHRM5OwBYTcU5JSKR2fgr24ovRCyw" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.salon.com/2011/07/24/disgust_interview/&ved=0ahUKEwjp39_07fPMAhWI7RQKHUJACwsQFggbMAA&usg=AFQjCNHRM5OwBYTcU5JSKR2fgr24ovRCyw

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.dba-oracle.com/p_human_revulsion_instinct_behavior.htm&ved=0ahUKEwjW1c-z8fPMAhUKvBQKHXaEAUgQFggeMAE&usg=AFQjCNGusWwnyJQIQFAT47l7_Pm2DxYmUw" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.dba-oracle.com/p_human_revulsion_instinct_behavior.htm&ved=0ahUKEwjW1c-z8fPMAhUKvBQKHXaEAUgQFggeMAE&usg=AFQjCNGusWwnyJQIQFAT47l7_Pm2DxYmUw

Complete derail, sorry, but the topic of revulsion^ and its biological imperative (as MrsTerry says, it is innate to help prevent body consuming something baaaddd) is fascinating...particularly when one thinks of toddlers' obsessions with poo and eating gross things!!! Apparently revulsion to poo kicks in at 4, but although the gag reflex is not as sophisticated in babies/toddlers they will readily refuse spoiled food.
According to Gladwell (the ketchup conundrum, well worth a read if you are interested gladwell.com/the-ketchup-conundrum/) most children tend to be neophobic at 2-3: shrinking from new tastes as that would have been the hunting and foraging age so sticking to what you knew=survival).

[shinynewusername]

I would ask your GP for a referral to an ENT specialist

A paediatric neurologist would be the best bet but, if there isn't one locally, an ENT surgeon with an interest in paediatrics would be a start.

[LittleHouseOnTheShelf]

Does she have hay fever? I don't sneeze with my hay fever but I have no sense of smell at all unless I take hay fever medicines all year.

[firesidechat]

Isn't it more likely to be a genetic factor that family members have mistakenly linked to traumatic events?

^this

I agree with this too.

Even recent family history is distorted by time. My great grandfather who was a carpenter, apparently fell off a roof and broke his neck. I found the report of his funeral and death in the newspaper. He died of a heart condition in his own bed. He may have fallen off a roof at some point, but it's not what killed him. Stories get handed down and sometimes people put 2 and 2 together and make 5.

I expect the grandfather in this case didn't have a sense of smell and did suffer some traumatic event, but the two may not be connected. It looks like there may be a strong normal genetic link to the lack of smell in the family.

[MiffleTheIntrovert]

Op some of these replies were needlessly sneery. It's a bit mean to be sneery at someone worrying about a health issue in their DC, and says more about these posters than about you. Please don't feel like an idiot. If you feel your GP isn't sympathetic, could you see another one in the practice?

I have DCs diagnosed with a genetic condition which was initially attributed to birth trauma for DC1. Have to say, some medical professionals were a bit sneery when I asked about the possibility of it re-occurring to affect future DCs - they should have listened with an open mind, instead of dismissing it. My DCs are perfect to me and I love them but it would have been good to have been more prepared for the likelihood of it reoccurring.

I hope you get somewhere and feel better soon, and please don't feel bad

[VulcanWoman]

Why do people have to be so bloody nasty FGS.

Sounds like a genetic thing and I don't think the GP should have brushed it off like that. I'd get another opinion.