to think she can't smell and it's my grandad's fault

[GrumpyMcGrumpyFace]

DD (7) has always said that she can't smell. To be honest I've never really thought much about it thinking that it was a developmental thing and she would start to recognise smells as she got older. Only she hasn't. When ever I ask if she can smell a strong smell, her answer is no and there is no reaction from her. She never comments on smells. Last time we went to see the GP I mentioned it to him. He kind of laughed it off saying that she must be able to as if she wasn't able to smell she wouldn't be able to taste and she does taste different things.

I always knew that my mum couldn't smell and thought it was because of an accident that she had when she was a girl. However, I found out today that my granddad couldn't smell either. He received a facial injury in WW2 that left him partially sighted and without a sense of smell.

So, AIBU to think that there has been an intergenerational transmission of trauma which has meant that my daughter isn't able to smell or has a very poor sense of smell?

and

AIBU not to do anything about it because it doesn't have any affect on her life in anyway, although it would be good to know for future reference.

[AnotherPrickInTheWall]

Adenoids?? I have a couple of friends who can't smell due to having these.
It is quite likely a genetic thing or at least genetically predisposed.
My good friend asked her doctor to investigate her loss of smell and she ( doctor)was dismissive.
Friend said that smell is important..what if there was a gas leak or whatever?

[BrexitJones]

To all the scoffers, have a google of epigenetics.

There have been a few good peer-reviewed studies on this and scientists now do think it's possible for environmental factors (such as traumatic events) can switch genes on and off.

Some of this is based on research done on holocaust survivors and the links with anxiety and depression in later generations.

It's fascinating.

[FV45]

This would be Lamarckism "Lamarckism (or Lamarckian inheritance) is the idea that an organism can pass on characteristics that it has acquired during its lifetime to its offspring (also known as heritability of acquired characteristics or soft inheritance)."

This idea has had it's day, it's all about Darwin now.

[Pollaidh]

As an ex-evolutionary biologist I can tell you that No. You cannot pass down acquired characteristics like that!

People sometimes get confused because pre-Darwin there was a chap called Lamarck who thought e.g. giraffes stretched their necks to reach high trees, and that got passed down. Completely debunked.

Someone suggested that an inherited smell deficiency could have been falsely associated with the grandparent's facial trauma, which may be possible - i.e. he already had it, but didn't realise, and it wasn't until they asked him lots of medical questions following the facial injury that it was discovered.

[BrexitJones]

www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/21/study-of-holocaust-survivors-finds-trauma-passed-on-to-childrens-genes

[1horatio]

A woman in the conservatoire I used to have my violin classes was (is? Haven't been there in years...) like that. It's actually dangerous, she once nearly burned her house down because she couldn't smell the smoke...

If I were you I'd definitely have it checked out.

However, I'd also like to add that she may be a bit like me. I seem to be very good at unconsciously ignoring smells. Unless I focus on smelling something it often just doesn't register... Maybe she's like that? But yes, you should definitely have a doctor investigate this (preferably one that takes you seriously....)

[eurochick]

For some reason the friends episode where Rachel talks about the baby not getting a big nose because she had had a nose job springs to mind...

[AnotherPrickInTheWall]

I can guess that 70 odd years ago doctors blamed all sorts of ailments on the trauma of war.
Nowadays they would investigate the physical and perhaps psychological reasons for the symptoms.

[1horatio]

BrexitJones: This doesn't surprise me at all. My mum had an absolutely horrible childhood (really really horrible) and her father also had a really horrible childhood.

I guess it's interesting to notice that I do have a stress disorder. And I'm pretty sure my mother has something (could also be PTSD or Idk...)

This is obviously just anecdotal, but I wouldn't just dismiss the idea.

[Gabilan]

Lamarckianism was dismissed but there is now some evidence that acquired characteristics can become hereditary. The work I've seen concerned famine and the stress of starvation.

But op, it's unlikely. Go back to your gp and be more insistent. And ignore the sneering - I suspect that's your gp's problem too.

[HappyNevertheless]

Polla actually there is big reverse trend about Lamarck and Darwin saying that actually it is Lamarck that was right...

And YY to Brexit. There is now [plenty of evidence that trauma is passed down generations.

In the case of the OP though, does it matter if it's coming from her grandfather?
What needs to happen is for her dd to be checked out for the safety reasons highlighted before.

[MaidOfStars]

This is not going to be epigenetic. While there are many studies demonstrating that environmental influences can affect offspring, anosmia isn't an obvious candidate, especially not anosmia acquired by injury.

Intact Jewish boys are born to circumcised fathers all the time....

Very likely genetic, OP.

[HermioneJeanGranger]

Epigenetics is a thing - there is a theory that trauma can change people's genes in some way and that the trauma can in some ways be "passed on" to the next generation. It's being investigated by world-renowned scientists, so it's not a completely ridiculous concept

"The field of epigenetics is quickly growing and with it the understanding that both the environment and individual lifestyle can also directly interact with the genome to influence epigenetic change. These changes may be reflected at various stages throughout a person’s life and even in later generations. "

www.whatisepigenetics.com/fundamentals/2/

[Pollaidh]

Yes, there is evidence for epigenetics, but there's a difference between epigenetics and the idea proposed by the OP that an impact to the face somehow switched off the grandfather's ability to smell (so affected/damaged all of the genes associated with different smell receptors), and that got passed down.

An injury to the face can definitely damage a person's sense of smell physically, due to the physical impact, but I would think that for it to then be inherited the environmental stressor (in your case the facial injury) would have to somehow switch off all genes associated with the different smell receptors, and that would be a whole body effect. Most of the epigenetic studies are whole-body stressors like stress, poor nutrition, toxins. A facial injury isn't.

So, okay the facial injury could have been associated with whole body psychological trauma, but then you'd expect to see more widespread evidence of loss of smell in the post-war generations. Not everyone would be expected to exhibit this, because they would have different genes, but in such a large generation you would see enough to suggest a link.

Show me a mechanism and I'll look at it again, but basically it doesn't add up.

[SnuffleGruntSnorter]

What Polliadh said.
x q

[GrumpyMcGrumpyFace]

Fantastic. Most of you think I'm an idiot.
I will take DD back to the GP to have it investigated. I guess now I just have to figure out a way to make the GP take this more seriously.

[PaulAnkaTheDog]

Yes, there is evidence for epigenetics, but there's a difference between epigenetics and the idea proposed by the OP that an impact to the face somehow switched off the grandfather's ability to smell (so affected/damaged all of the genes associated with different smell receptors), and that got passed down.

This. Get real people, don't try to credit the OP's post as something it's not. It is daft.

[HermioneJeanGranger]

Yes, it's unlikely, but there's no need for posters to pile on and take the piss and be nasty to OP.

Epigenetics exists. While it's unlikely to have caused the DD's problem, it's not impossible. Posters are suggesting that no trauma can be passed down and are implying the OP is stupid for suggesting it, when it is entirely possible.

[MaidOfStars]

there is big reverse trend about Lamarck and Darwin saying that actually it is Lamarck that was right...And YY to Brexit. There is now [plenty of evidence that trauma is passed down generations

No there isn't. Lamarckism requires that the organism itself responds favourably within a particular environment, and that the actions taken by that organism can be passed on. This is NOT epigenetics.

Epigenetics is the study of how environment can modify gene expression. It gets brought out as a vehicle for Lamarckian evolution because it seems, to the general population, a plausible mechanism. But it is not. Epigenetic mechanisms can modify, say, the neural wiring in your brain in response to trauma etc and those changes can be inherited by your offspring, but the changes are not permanent (most studies show no effect beyond three generations).

[PaulAnkaTheDog]

Grumpy no one called you an idiot. Make yourself feel better by looking at some of the threads in Chat about things people didn't know. It's amazing what bypasses people and what people can't comprehend!

[Pollaidh]

Is anyone saying that Lamarck was right about everything? I thought the argument (e.g. per SJG) was that alongside his giraffe hypothesis he did actually have some very sensible ideas, but Lamarck has always unfairly been associated with Lamarckism in particular, and therefore isn't properly recognised for the other work he did.

I am not saying epigenetics doesn't exist. There is a lot of evidence for it, but I think in this particular case there are other and more likely solutions.

[shinynewusername]

To all those taking the mick out of the OP, which do you think is more likely: 3 generations of a family have no sense of smell, each for a different reason or 3 generations have inherited anosmia, but it was incorrectly attributed to accidents?

Congenital anosmia is rare but a recognised condition. It can have autosomal dominant inheritance, which would fit with a member of each generation having it. And it has variable penetrance, meaning that people with the gene are affected to variable extents - they don't all have a total inability to smell and some people have the gene but can smell normally. So the OP's grandfather and mother probably had the gene but only noticed the "loss" of smell after accidents, when their genetically poor sense of smell was made worse by the trauma. The OP herself must have the gene (unless it also runs in her DH/DP's family which is very unlikely) but the gene may have little effect on her. She has however passed it on to her daughter.

OP, isolated congenital anosmia is very rare, so I'm not surprised your GP hasn't heard of it. It is harmless. If you Google it, you'll probably read about something called Kalmann syndrome which is when inability to smell is linked to other problems like an inability to feel pain but don't worry - that is a different inheritance pattern that usually only affects men and - if your DD couldn't feel pain - it would have been obvious from infancy.

[Sandalwearingdoglady]

Mate.

[bestcatintheworld]

I totally don't think you're an idiot, for what it's worth. I do think that there may be a genetic component, and I'd ignore the spiteful comments.

I'm not sure whether it's possible that his trauma has translated over generations, but stranger things have happened. It may all be coincidental, but it's not a bad question to ask.

[MessedUpWheelieBin]

YABU to blame it on 'intergenerational trauma' and YABU to not do anything about it for your daughter.
My friend can't smell and can barely taste. Her's is acquired and untreatable. She's sensible about obvious things, but she's a parent with children with additional needs who don't always follow the rules, and they've been endangered several times. She has no choice about it, your daughter might.