about school and risk assessment

[GColdtimer]

Dd has a badly sprained wrist. Tomorrow all of year 5/6 are visiting another school for a sports event. I presumed dd would go along to watch and support (no sports for her for the rest of the week). She has just got home (was at a friends) and is upset that she has to go and spend the afternoon with year 3/4. Something to do with the risk assessment person saying it was too risky for her to go.

AIBU to wonder what is so risky about watching her classmates run around a field?

[RJnomore1]

It certainly does when it's approached like that.

[GColdtimer]

Birds, no assistance needed at all. She can manage and has been told to use it a little bit.

I wanted to see the risk assessment so I could explain to dd why she couldn't go. Also they asked me to sign it so I had to see it anyway.

Teacher said it was to do with ratios. Couldn't explain why she couldn't just join the group she had been put with and stay with the teacher whilst they did their activities (business manager did risk assess not the teacher, got the feeling the teacher couldn't understand it either). I didn't pursue it obviously. Dd sat reading carries war and doing an activity around that outside another classroom with another injured child for the afternoon. Teacher of that class poked his head out to check on them once or twice. Not that I personally think that's a problem by the way, but am wondering where the risk assessment is for that!

By the way I have no gripes with school or teachers at all. Just think this H&S stuff lacks common sense sometimes.

[TheSolitaryBoojum]

It's also about 'Why take the risk?'
Considering how many people are willing to jump onto a 'negligent' school and teacher with both boots, and that the child will not be able to be an active participant, why risk it?

[Birdsgottafly]

Does she need any assistance when using the toilet, with dressing etc?

If the wrist is "badly sprained", does it mean she can't use it at all?

As said, perhaps ask to see the risk assessment. No-one on here can answer if she can go, tbh.

[youUserNameHistory]

Kitty's speaking a lot of sense. Risk assessments are extremely subjective.

What do you hope to gain OP by "[asking] to see a copy of the risk assessment tomorrow."?

[KittyVonCatsworth]

RJ totally agree - you can't eliminate all risk but in the particular risk assessment of her attending the trip and possibly exacerbating an existing injury (albeit as a spectator but with no supervision), the risk can be eliminated i.e. she doesn't go. She stays at school where she will have the normal level of supervision, standard emergency arrangements etc

If I was the risk assessor in this instance I'd look, obviously at the supervision ratios, access to first aid, distance from hospital, distance from parents etc as well as the physical area they're visiting and the activities she'll be doing e.g. even considering getting hot drinks - if she's injured her wrist, is there the risk she can burn herself? if she tripped going to the loo and ended up breaking her wrist? These are the activities you'd have to consider, and what are the control measures - supervision (to bring her drinks), knowing where the nearest hospital was if her condition worsened.

If I'm not familiar with the area or know exactly what she'll be doing, I can't make a suitable and sufficient assessment. Likewise, if I make an assessment and there is a solution that eliminates these risks for that person doing that activity at that location I then refer back to my first principle of risk prevention - eliminate the risk. Keeping her at school, with all normal levels of supervision and familiar emergency arrangements and that is "as low as is reasonably practicable".

That's the beauty of risk management; it's pretty subjective and it's the balance of risk (likelihood and consequences) v benefit. To me, the benefits are minimal compared to the risk to the school (litigation) and the girl (further injury).

[DancingPenguin1]

H& S in schools isn't as ridiculous as its sometimes made out to be. It should very much take a common sense approach (sadly lacking here)

[RJnomore1]

Kitty that's wrong. You cannot eliminate all risk. It's about identifying, assessing the level, working out appropriate controls and deciding if it's acceptable to take the risk. If you tried to elimate all risk not only would you never do anything but think of the effect on children and young people. They need to be taught about acceptable risk.

I'm curious to know the raised risk from a hand injury. If she had problems with mobility I'd get it a bit more.

[DancingPenguin1]

An activity can be adapted to minimise risk, in this case supporting / watching / scoring / reporter / photographer etc etc etc. There are lots of other options other than participating in the activity.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

It really is a wonder that teachers do any trips at all.

[KittyVonCatsworth]

First step in the hierarchy of control - eliminate the risk. It may seem OTT, but that's H&S law - if anything did happen to her, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on...H&S law is unusual in the respect that you're guilty until you can prove you're innocent.

[GColdtimer]

Thank you, will keep you posted!

[Stillunexpected]

How would the staff be any more confused about which group she was with than any of the other students? Presumably there is a list which they are following and/or a teacher in charge of each group. I also don't understand the point about her wandering off. Again, she is no more or less likely than any of the others to go wandering. I'm don't see that there is any particular concern about being jostled or bumped and suspect that is far more likely to happen in her own school in the lunch line or playground or in a crowded corridor changing classes. It will be interesting to see what their rationale for this is when you ask tomorrow.

[HeartsTrumpDiamonds]

I'm in charge of risk assessments at our school, had tons of H&S and risk assessment training, yada yada, and I have never heard something so ridiculous. Poor girl. Good luck tomorrow OP.

[GColdtimer]

Thanks dancing and RJ. Will ask to see a copy of the risk assessment tomorrow.

[GoblinLittleOwl]

She has a badly sprained wrist and can't participate in games and 'doing fun stuff.' The risk has been assessed by the person in charge.

[RJnomore1]

Christ op no yanbu I do lots of work with young people and risk assessing and there is no reason for your daughter to be excluded.

"The staff might be confused about which group she is with" is NOT a valid reason.

If it was her leg I'd be more cautious but ask for a copy of this risk assessment. I'd love to see what additional risk they have identified her as being which cannot be managed.

[GColdtimer]

I suppose it depends whether you think the activity is the sports or whether it's visiting another school for games,meeting new people and team building and an afternoon doing fun stuff. Which is what the letter said it was about.

I feel she is being excluded from a fun afternoon out.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

Schools are legally obliged to take every possible step to overcome a risk to prevent a student being excluded from an activity.

But she is unable to do the activity due to her injury.

[DancingPenguin1]

I coordinate visits and risk assessments in a school, if they have completed a risk assessment that says it's too risky for her to go they should be able to actually show you the written risk assessment detailing why so I would challenge them. Schools are legally obliged to take every possible step to overcome a risk to prevent a student being excluded from an activity. I can't see the issue with your daughter attending, staff should be perfectly capable of supervising her under these circumstances. If not they should be putting in additional staffing or perhaps inviting you along. I would never exclude a child in this way.

[GColdtimer]

Ok. It looks like I am being unreasonable.

Just seems totally nuts.

[TheSolitaryBoojum]

Ten years ago, it wouldn't have been a consideration worth worrying about.
Now things are much stricter.

[SusanAndBinkyRideForth]

I would suspect it's because they can't guarantee she won't get bumped on the bus or in the groups watching on the sidelines.

[TheSolitaryBoojum]

They don't have a pre-existing injury that could impair their balance.

[curren]

Because they could quite easily lose track of which group she is in or who is responsible for her at a certain time.