to ask how you deal with a child that never accepts blame?

[LissaLoves]

DD is 8 and generally very well behaved and very good with her siblings. However, if she does something wrong she always denies it and tries to turn things around to evoke sympathy for her. She has never ever accepted blame or apologised for anything.

As an example: today her and her 4 year old sister were playing in the play house in the garden. I was in the house but popped to the car to get something so could hear them without them knowing.

Dd8: sit on that chair and pretend you're reading.
Dd4: no thank you, I'm just sorting this.
Dd8: if you don't do as I say then you can get out of my house.
Dd4: but I don't want to sit down right now.
Dd8: right, get out then and I don't want to be your friend or play with you for the rest of the day.
[Dd4 starts to sob]
Dd8: baby! Baby! Get out get out get out get out...
[Dd4 wailing]

I go to back garden and ask what's wrong. Dd8 says Dd4 was annoyed there wasn't enough space so she asked if she'd like to do what she's doing outside. I ask Dd4, too, but she's inconsolable and doesn't grass her sister up anyway. I explain that I heard Dd8 speaking very unkindly to her sister and before I even finish my sentence she shrieks 'I wasn't!!' and starts wailing twice as loudly as her sister.

I tend to Dd4 and when Dd8 calms down I say that if she has made a mistake, it doesn't help matters to be dishonest about it, just scream and cry and not talk about it and to never apologise for her actions. I say I'd have much more respect for her and we could just move on if she just admitted fault and apologised to her sister. She maintains she doesn't need to apologise because she didn't do anything wrong. I pointed out that she's never apologised to anyone for anything, so does that mean she's never done anything wrong? She just shrugged and tried changing the subject and being super chatty and nice to her sister and I like she always does if she's in the wrong.

Does anyone else have a child who behaves like this? How do you deal with them?

[rumbleinthrjungle]

If she's getting the wailing to work for her by forcing you to stop saying what she doesn't want to hear and to shift your attention to calming her down (and is following you around so that you can see and hear her wail better) then rather than ignoring her a firm 'go up to your room and close your door until you've finished shouting please' may work better. And take her up there if she wants to stand and argue about that too. I agree consequences need to be firmer, she sounds like a person of character and determination. Does her teacher find she does this at school too?

[DoJo]

I too agree that half an hour not playing is nothing like a suitable punishment - my son is 4 and will have a more substantial sanction than that (e.g no screen time for the rest of the day or similar) for bad behaviour, let alone lying.
When I ask him about things, I also 'remind' him before he answers that he will ALWAYS be in more trouble for lying than for telling the truth, which seems to help him focus on the facts rather than letting him lie and then addressing it afterwards.

[Baconyum]

Have to say I'm agreeing with Mrs gosling to a degree, think I'd do no playhouse for a day then 2 days for lying and another day for each denial!

[MrsRyanGosling15]

I'm sorry but no play house for 30 min for an 8yr old is a crap consequence. If she won't even admit what she did I wouldn't be letting her near it for at least a week. Then there would be a separate punishment for being so horrible to her sister. I think from the sound of your posts so far you have just been too soft and although not purposely, have enabled this behaviour.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Never accepts blame ....
Wait 40 years and she'll be Prime Minister.

[paxillin]

If DD2 does not have a problem apologising and being honest, "use" her as an example. If she does wrong, admits it and apologises, do a "Thank you for being honest about it. I can see that you are sorry, so we leave it at that." Continue ton of bricks treatment for dishonesty. DD1 will see which works better.

[Baconyum]

If she's following you put her back where she's supposed to be and warn her if she doesn't stay put there'll be an additional consequence. Each time she lies (including denying lying) consequence.

It's interesting, my daughter and one of her wee gang have 'the strictest parents in the world' we all 3 will not tolerate lying and lying getsbthe worst consequences, the other 3 don't, guess which ones get in more bother...and not just lying? Honesty is the basis of good behaviour.

[blackheartsgirl]

*Front of MY face not hers lol

[blackheartsgirl]

I'm having the exact same issue with my 8 year old dd2 at the moment. Never takes responsibility for her actions, will scream and cry if you catch her out, she was mean to her sister right in front of her face then told me I must have imagined it, she didn't do it and her sister made it up. When challenged she will scream I didn't I didn't several times then sulk massively and cry. She wondered out in the road without looking yesterday, again in front of me, but I couldn't grab her quick enough, luckily no car coming that time, she denied it and screamed at me she did look, but she bloody didn't.

Also won't do as she's told. Ever. Shes told not to do cartwheels in the house or at the dance studio, her dance teacher has warned her 3 times about this as she kicked another girl. She did it yet again at rehearsals yesterday, out of sight from me as we both dance at the same place, kicked her little sister in the face then denied shed done it and she must have fallen.

I despair, I've tried talking to her, punishing her to no avail. I never had this off my older two, why she is like it I don't know.

Thanks lissaloves for starting this thread, I was going to start one very similar funnily enough. I'm going to try out a few of these suggestions from other posters

[LissaLoves]

I do leave the room while she's wailing but she tends to follow me or just get louder to compensate for the distance. When she stops I then inform her of the consequence (no more play house for half hour) but she continues to swear blind she didn't lie and will never back down. She's incredibly stubborn and even if she's clearly wrong about something, she'll still insist she's right!

[bruffin]

Lougle
i never forced an apology from because i learnt with him that he needed to go away and think about and you would get a genuine heartfelt apology.
My dd in the other hand would say sorry and carryon doing what she was doing .
She once got a form certificate (funny ones given out at end of term) for the "girl who is always saying sorry" teacher would tell her off for talking , she would say sorry,then she would carry on talking.
Now i would much rather my ds sorry an hour latter , than my dds insincere one.

[StillMedusa]

My DS1 was just like this... I remember in yr 1 his teacher saying he must learn to take responsibility for his own actions. His default was ALWAYS to lie..no matter how small the wrong doing..which of course only made things worse.

I always explained that telling me the truth was a lot less likely to get him into trouble than lying, but it took a LONG time for him to reduce his reactions. He was a hideous teenager too... god the lies he told . HOWEVER he is now a very lovely decent 23 yr old.. he did finally grow out of it when he finally realised he didn't NEED to behave that way.

None of my other three were like that at all so I don't think it was our parenting approach; he was just a complex little character.

[soapboxqueen]

The problem is, lying works. Unless she gets caught out as she did here. While many children crack very quickly under pressure, some don't because they've learned that if they stick to their guns, they might just escape punishment. Even if it only works some of the time, it's a good strategy.

Any rate, I would make her apologise. It's not just about the 'offender' is about fairness to the other child etc Also if she finds it stressful (hence the tantrum) it'll help to keep experiencing it.

Punish the lying on top of whatever else happened. I'd also be giving a time out for the tantrum. I wouldn't even begin to discuss it until she was able to actually discuss it calmly. I wouldn't be feeding the tantrum by watching it.

Then I'd follow up on the 'I don't know when your telling the truth' bit in everyday situations. It could be other spats with siblings eg you say it's their word against hers and normally you'd treat that equally but you know that she lies so.... . It could be she wanted a magazine/drink /snack or something and when she doesn't get it you say you thought she didn't mean it because you can 'never tell when she means what she says'

Some children need to be taught explicitly there is a benefit to being seen as honest.

[lougle]

I agree with others. This idea of not forcing apologies is absolute rubbish. The apology is for the benefit of the aggrieved, not the aggressor.

Lying is completely unacceptable in our house and I come down on it like a ton of bricks. I've always told my girls that lying about doing wrong is worse than the thing itself. Unsurprisingly, my girls very rarely lie (and make a terrible job of it if they do try). Other children I know lie as easily as they breathe because lying is brushed off as them being little pickles.

[1AngelicFruitCake]

As others have said, there were two incidents.

She was nasty to her sister and then she lied. I would have taken her out of the playhouse for a set period of time and let her little sister play in there on her own. Explain that's she's having time out or whatever you want to call it because of being mean and then make it clear that ' X many minutes time out is because you lied'

I think when she's denying things don't give her an audience just tell her firmly you'll speak with her/ let her play again when she's going to tell the truth.

[OzzieFem]

If the OP's incident had occured with a different younger child and that child's parent was the one to overhear the exchange, then they would have rightly claimed their child was being bullied.

OP, I'm just wondering how your elder daughter behaves at school.

[SushiAndTheBanshees]

Personally, I think that consequences for lying are key, as well as understanding WHY she won't take responsibility for being at fault, or not wanting to accept fault.

If it's as simple as not wanting to suffer a punishment: tough. We reap what we sow. If it's a question of not wanting to be brought down a peg, or needing always to be right/superior/the best/the correct one, then another approach is required.

In your example above, unfortunately it sounds like plain old fashioned bullying, picking on someone smaller than her. Repercussions of that are a whole different ball game.

In all cases, she needs enforced consequences for lying as well as working on the underlying reason for lying.

[itsatiggerday]

Totally agree on the lying being a matter for training and discipline in its own right. We have always tried to say that lying is a serious matter because we want to trust each other and it's hard to do that if we don't know whether we're telling the truth. As well as consequences for lying, I have found it powerful on occasion to significantly mitigate a consequence for behaviour because they have owned up to it swiftly and completely when they might have tried to lie knowing that we didn't actually see the incident. That has validated that we will appreciate them telling the truth even when it means owning up to something.

[Baconyum]

And yes to the comments on you should make them apologise. Remorse is learnt/develops. An apology isn't just about the person making the apology it's about the person who's been wronged too, does your younger dd not deserve an apology?

Criminals 'apologise' by serving a sentence - they don't choose that!

[Baconyum]

Simple

Consequence for the behaviour

Separate consequence for the lying

Make it clear to dd which is which and each time she does something that warrants a consequence and tries to lie her way out of it you do this and she should learn she gets a consequence for the lie so better to tell the truth.

BUT be certain she is lying and you're not entering into a GC/scapegoat situation.

"and doesn't grass her sister up anyway." Are you certain of this every time?

[VinceNoirLovesHowardMoon]

You say you don't make them apologise if you think they don't mean it but of course you should make them apologise! You teach them how to apologise from an age that's too young to actually feel remorse.

[wonderingsoul]

My ds2 is a bit like this.

The lying is what would really get to me and it isnt tolerated in my house.

With ds2 he was told if the boy who cried wolf, and turned it into real terms...

That when he tells me didnt hut hea brother that i might not belive him because he lies

Also constant reminsing before hea talked to that if he is honest they hes punishment wont be as bad along with a praise when he does tell the truth (he still gets hea punishment but also gets a well done for telling the truth)

[Peyia]

Punishments... bah... they don't work

They do in my house.

Some behaviour doesn't warrant a 'I wonder' approach, but I agree you can reason on some things whilst others just need to be nipped in the bud with a consequence. That's life from my experience, I don't always get a nice talking too from the DVLA if I don't comply with something I should - hypothetically speaking obviously

[fatmomma99]

I would use "I wonder?" As in "I wonder what it would feel like if...." (and insert the RL situation of your choice) and get your DD to answer.

Also, a good friend of mine with 3 girls who do spats and spats says to her girls "I want you to think about what you've done to xxx, and think about how she'd feel about it and think if there's anything you'd like to say to xx" (so she doesn't MAKE her kids apologise, but she does encourage empathy).

Punishments... bah... they don't work. Correct/deal with/work on the behaviour rather than being punitive.

[sallyjane40]

I would see lying about what happened, as another 'incident', as bad as the original meaness to her sister, and explain that she will have 2 punishments because she wasn't truthful, and didn't own up to what she did. She's old enough that she really needs to understand the importance of being honest, and taking responsibility for her behaviour.
The wailing definitely should be ignored imo (preferably move to another room), then continue to tell her what is wrong, and what will happen as a consequence when she finishes; she has discovered (probably by accident) that her reaction is distracting attention from what she has done wrong - but that needs to end, for everyone's sake - she's going to look daft wailing if she gets told off when she's 12!