To give dt1 more attention...

[twintroubles]

I'm so fed up of thinking about this issue. I'd love another perspective, or several. Dt1 (6) is very challenging and needy. Dt2 on the other hand is relaxed and not needy at all. Therefore i find a lot of my attention goes on dt1.

Example: dt1 cried all morning because she didnt want to go to school. I tried every tact. Nothing worked. inevitably a lot of my attention was on her. She was a puddle of utter misery. To complicate matters, i was desperate for her to stop crying partly because dt2 gets really upset when dt1 is upset. This is the only thing that does get to her. Dt2 also hates it when I'm firm with dt1 and send her for time-out in her room or tell her off.

This happens all the time, whether its at school or during the extracurricular they do together or at home. Dt1 is frequently upset and that upsets dt2.

Another example of dt1's behaviour: i told her to stay in her seat when i was making pancakes, multiple times. She keeps getting up and comes to cling on me. Makes pancake-making very difficult, especially as my other children are talking to me all at once. I raise my voice and tell her to sit down. She punches me in the stomach. I send her to her room for ten min.

So consequently i try to help dt1 with her behaviour both for her sake and for her twin's sake. But this puts a lof of my attention her way. Any tips or common experiences?

I do do special one on ones with dt2, but the problem is dt1's issues are almost constant the rest of the time.

[ceebie]

twintroubles I am so glad to hear that things are improving and you have new strategies for dealing with the situation! Things sounds much more positive, I hope it continues to go well for you and all the children!

[countingkids123]

Not read all the posts but here's why I feel...

Got DC1 then twins shorty after. With such a small age gap they can all be vying my attention at the same time, which combined with being permanently tired shortens my fuse. Yes, it IS attention seeking but do praise positive behaviours and try and ignore the annoying behaviours until I'm calm enough to explain why their behaviour wasn't acceptable. Not always easily done as the twins are only 3. I do give them their own special time though. Each one has a set day when I devote some time solely to them. Usually at the weekend when DH is around, but I also have parents within driving distance so if needed I can drop the twins with them and take DS1 somewhere. They just need to feel as though they've got my sole attention so they can feel heard.

Do you think you could allocate some time just to her? Maybe they do different after school activities so they each get time alone with you and neither gets the chance to get jealous of the other one receiving more attention?

[LoveBoursin]

:)
Nice to see that things have settled down a bit and you are feeling more comfortable/confident

[twintroubles]

Ceebie - much better, thanks for asking! Dt1 is still who she is but the thread did help me somewhat make peace with that and her need for some extra attention, and support, whilst at the same time having firm boundaries in place for the behaviour which is just plainly unnacceptable. What came out of the thread more than anything else for me was that i should trust my instincts rather than taking any kind of blanket approach because she is more complicated than that.

I have taken her out of the extracurricular activity she was doing with her twin. Better for the twin who always tries to resolve dt1's issues and also means extra 121 with dt1, which i feel should help her. And i am determined to make 121 time with the others as well. Im looking for a different extracurricular she can start alone in september. I am discussing moving her to another class with her teacher...

Just in terms of the school anxiety, we had lots of talks about it. Partly so she felt listend to and supported, but also to problem solve if possible. It seemed to me that a lot of the problem was the that she just wasn't eating and that was making her feel very ill. So she now goes to school with snacks - we have dubbed these magic bites - to have when she feels sick or headachey and that seems to be really helping. I also gave her a day off in bed and that seemed to recharge hwr batteries. Anyway, fingers crossed!!!

Merrymarigold - just to answer your question, the reason i worry more about the twin and not the others is because they get my attention one way or another. They are very chatty! She is so independant and at peace that i have to make the effort to go to her and make sure she's not missed out.

[ceebie]

How's it been going, twintroubles?

[MerryMarigold]

I noticed you seem to feel worse that dt2 doesn't get as much attention as dt1, and not so bad about your other kids. So, I think if you can try and feel about dt2 in the same way that you do about your other kids it would help the guilt side. Perhaps your family also need to separate them out in their heads too.

[MerryMarigold]

Hope it goes well for you, twintroubles. I think the fact they are twins compounds it a bit in your head, but if you think of them as 4 individual children, one who needs more attention in certain areas, it is easier. I don't often feel bad about my ds1 needing more of my emotional attention than my twins, because he just does, but I can see if it was one of my twins needing it, it would be harder. Actually dd definitely has more emotional needs than ds2, and is the only girl so has more time with me whilst the boys do what they're into (which she isn't into ie. Xbox) so in terms of emotional support/ time ds2 would probably rank last. However, I support him in his sports - money, ferrying around - (as does dh) as he is really into his sport. So, as Boursin said, their needs are being met in different ways. They all have their needs met, but just not necessarily in the same way.

[twintroubles]

It is actually. Because thats the final ingredient that goes into making the decision on how best to manage something. After everything we have discussed. Thanks for helping. You and the others have really really made a difference to me when i was feeling so confused.

[LoveBoursin]

Yes it's very hard to judge what is the best way.
I just don't believe that there is a recipe as such and you just need to .
I do believe in setting up boundaries and limits.
I do believe that sometimes children are playing up (ASD, SN or NT) and then some the answers on this thread are totally valid.
And sometimes too, they do need some allowances made to them ie support for them to be able to cope with said boundaries rather than changing the boundaries as such.
Eg: having some quiet time going back home, doing some colouring, being on your own (that one is what dc2 has chosen as his favourite method when he is feeling overwhelmed. Everyone knows to leave him alone if he says he wants to be on his own in his bedroom)

My rule there has been to go with my gut feeling, which I know won't be very helpful to you!

[twintroubles]

Mentallentil dt1 is socially and verbally very sophisticated for her age so i dont think she has pda. I appreciate the thought though.

[twintroubles]

Thanks mentallentil. I will have a look at that.

[twintroubles]

Yes i know you're right but i find it so confusing with even people on here saying i need to ignore all the negative behaviour rather than try to understand it and provide support and my family saying that i am doing wrong to give dt1 more attention and that i should be disciplining her for all her behaviour because otherwise i will be creating a person who will always need special treatment and cannot cope with life...

[MentalLentil]

I've just attended the National Autistic Society's professional conference this week, and I think you might find it interesting to look up some of the behaviours commonly found in children with Pathological Demand Avoidance, because a lot of what you've described with your DD sounds similar.

[LoveBoursin]

Don't worry about that. You are not 'spoiling' her by giving her the attention/support she needs. Quite the opposite. You are being a great mum.

The issue of not spending the same 'investment' than with dt2 is something I suspect you are found for every child you have. Children who have more difficulties get more support. And not all of them need the same type of support (let's say on needs help with reading whereas another has more issue with social stuff) That goes well with my definition of fairness (ie not giving the same to each child but giving them what they need instead).

[twintroubles]

That makes sense loveboursin although to be honest dt1's issues are too varied and pervasive to be just about school. But i have noticed the same thing. She explodes when she comes out of school. So definitely that is a factor.

I am definitely listening to her. Before i posted id already spoken to her teacher about the lunch time issue and suggested some things that might help. Her teacher is very supportive which is wonderful. Its always my instinct to support dt1/make things easier for her but then i worry about whether this is reinforcing her behaviour and also about the fact that this investment in her is not replicated in her twin.

[LoveBoursin]

I would really listen to her when she is telling you that. I suspect this the root of a lot of the problem (eg winging and crying when getting to go to school etc...)

Another thing that I have noticed with dc2 is that he is able to keep everything inside when he is at school, all the overwhelm and the upset but as soon as he gets out of the classroom he 'explodes'.
Last week he had a right go at me because he didn't have his guitar for the lesson. Somehow this was my fault he left it at home and he did stay very grumpy with me until he could calm down enough (a few hours later...). Then he was very happy to acknowledge that yes it was his fault, he should have taken it. But in the middle of the 'overwhelmed/very upset' stage, no discussion would have helped iyswim.
That's better than a few years ago (we had screaming and hitting, slamming doors, crying etc instead).
But a lot of the issues we had at home were linked with issues at school.

[twintroubles]

Yes, she's very bright (not just saying this - i have four and she is different) and understands an awful lot. Sometimes i wonder if her intellect is part of the problem; makes her extra sensitive somehow.

[LoveBoursin]

Yes the Highly Sensitice Child is a good one. The famous 'How to Tlak' also made a big difference for us.

Also agree about sensitivity to noise and I'm wondering if it wouldn't be worth having a chat about it with her teacher.
I have to say I'm impressed at how much insight your dt1 has re the noise, not eating and then getting headaches.

[twintroubles]

There are two classes per form so yes i will have a think about separating them. its definitely an option. Doesnt seem fair for dt2 to be uspet because of dt1's difficulties and if the comparison is an issue for dt1 it will surely help.

[twintroubles]

Thanks merrymarigold.

[MerryMarigold]

Is there an option for separate classes? It does sound sensory. Ds1 has always had packed lunch, since 1 term of Reception when he got so thin from not eating. He finds lunch very stressful from all angles socially as well. The teacher he has also massively affects his anxiety and he finds it v hard to cope with shouty teachers even if he is not being told off personally. I've had to speak to one of his teachers about it before (then found out she was in first trimester of pregnancy but she admitted she shouted a lot. Not a v sensitising lady so don't think she realised the impact) , but he's had lovely teachers past 2 years. They'd a book called The Highly Sensitive Child which has some good stuff in.

[twintroubles]

... wouldn't choose for them...

[twintroubles]

Ummmm... Interesting loveboursin. If you take my pancake example, she was getting up because she wanted a hug from me. And she punched me because my reaction overwhelmed her. Say this was driven by anxiety. Perhaps my response should have been to stop what i was doing before and give her a hug. Or at least to address that need and tell her this wasn't the time and we could hug later.

On the other hand if the need for a hug was attention seeking, i should have ignored it.

But how to recognise the difference? Which takes me back to my original post. To what extent should i give dt1 extra attention. I suppose the answer is to the extent that her issues are caused by anxiety? Or by whatever else might be at play.

How do i know then if anxiety underlies her issues?

I have always thought of her as being anxious generally. She's always always had trouble with change and quite simply leaving the house. Extra curricular activites have been very difficult. She's mortified me once or twice by screaming at/hitting the teachers.

I think i need to read up on anxiety. Any book recommendations?

Yes same class, same hobby, same best friend. I would choose for them to have the same hobby but for reasons i can't divulge here without outing myself it was inevitable. I am thinking about things they can do separately though, and whether dt1 should continue with it given she doesnt enjoy it much. I suppose she shouldn't really. Its just tricky because its a family and a community thing and i dont want her to fall behind in something that everyone is so involved in. Plus she has never enjoyed anything extracurricular.

[twintroubles]

Merrymarigold - Four. She says the problem with school is lunchtime. Its too noisy, the dinner ladies shout all the time, she hates the food. Seems like a little thing but she's crying as she tells me this and is consistently crying about it every day. She also complains about her teacher shouting at the whole class to be quiet. She's aware that because she wont touch the food at lunch and gets upset at lunch she will then have a headache and be hungry the rest of the day. This is what she repeatedly says. At school she is very at ease academically and enjoys the work. Socially she never complains but i do wonder. She and her twin share a best friend. I dont know how that goes. I presume fine as she doesnt mention it. As i mentioned earlier, her twin is all sunshine so perhaps that comparison is a thing. I dont know. I dont suppose she would have the words to express that.

I think you are right that some of it is a character thing.

[LoveBoursin]

Unwanted behavipour can be linked to lots of different things, not just wanting attention. That is a way to look at things that is much too simplistic.

The reward the good and ignore the bad system is based on the fact that getting attention is a scarce ressource and that having more of that is a treasure you don't want to miss.
It also assumes that, like a Pavlov dog, the child will learn if do xx, then I will get attention (which the child is supposed to carve). It is also assume that the child has enoough control over themselves and their emotions to make a choice.

However, a child that is anxious might display unwanted behaviour just because of that. He might well not be able to 'control' that anxiety at all or will not be able to think when he is in the middle of a full on anxiety/overwhelmed episode. He is not likely to be thinking 'well I shouldn't be doing xx because I won't get attention'.

Rereading your OP though, one thing jumped this time. It's the fact that both dt are doing the same extra curriculum activity. I assume they are in the same class too? Would ensuring that they do different activities help? I'm thinking lack of comparaison but also the fact that when dt1 is doing xx, then you can give dt2 you attention and when dt2 is doing yy, she can do so undistrubed by dt1.