AIBU to want some sleep?

[MrsO1980]

Hi, am looking for advice and support. I posted in parenting but don't think my sleep deprived brain did it properly so this is an abridged version. I have two DS aged 5 and 4. DS2 has not slept properly for four years, he either won't settle for hours (following quiet time, bath, milk and supper, story in bed and a song) or wakes at 3am and will not go back to sleep. He wakes the whole house running about, going into DS1's room or playing loudly. I feel exhausted :( I have tried pretty much every technique to help him to sleep better (co sleeping, gradual retreat, reward charts, consequences of not going somewhere the next day etc, lots of positive praise), I have spoken to HV three times - her most recent advice was to go on a parenting course with DH. Also spoken with GP who poo pooed the sleep issues, but did refer DS2 to audiology due to his 'soft speech.' We discussed the situation with his teacher, who said he is good in class but can sometimes be a bit head in the clouds. DS2's behaviour at home is worsening: eating a limited diet, won't sit at table, screaming (his vocabulary is average for 4 year old), and the final straw is hitting me hard/scratching/biting me. He has tantrums which are hard to control. DH is supportive but does not view it as such a big issue and can be inconsistent in his approach with the children. We are working through this and he seems to be starting to understand how bad I feel. I have recently gone full time at work, my job is quite stressful (criminal justice system) and we are currently refurbishing the house which we moved into a year ago. I desperately love my family but wish I could be 'signed off' from family life for a few weeks to get some peace and rest. Any ideas, help or advice would be much appreciated. Thanks S x

[sandy30]

I had huge trouble sleeping as a kid and it was miserable for everyone. A much later bedtime and a lot of fresh air exercise during the day helped (exercise inside just didn't cut it). For when that didn't work, I had a torch which I was allowed to read by quietly (shared a room with my sister). Even now, I'm very 'on' and my son is the same. He's only a toddler so we're just doing later bedtime and outside play.

[Fairylea]

Sorry if this is a really simple idea but how about a tall stair gate across his bedroom door? Amazon sell them. If he wakes he doesn't get to leave his bedroom, you go in and him back to bed and repeat without speaking as long as it takes for him to get the message. If he can undo the stair gate put a padlock on it. I'm not saying ignore him or leave him in their screaming etc but just putting a physical barrier up so he doesn't run about / make it really boring for him to get up.

[HSMMaCM]

Sandy30 I had a torch too. I still don't sleep well, but would never have got away with leaving my room (except for toilet or sickness) or shouting

I am working with one of the children I look after, to help him stop shouting at night. I talk to him during the day and then ask him the next day how he got on last night. Can you get someone else on board with asking him how he slept?

[MrsO1980]

That's really good Sirzy! Yes tried silent return, it didn't work a while ago but will try it again. I have looked into parenting courses and none in our area which would fit around work (DH works on Saturdays as self employed) unfortunately. But hoping in Jan there will be a better selection of courses. Yes Jimmy he is so tired it's ridiculous. Yes used a good reward chart but don't think me and DH we're consistent enough. X

[MrsO1980]

I've tried silent return but he found it really distressing. Maybe we should give it another try. I do need to be more firm and DH needs to be more consistent. I feel I shout quite a lot, due to tiredness and feeling stressed, so it's how to be authoritative without just being shouty. Any tips for this? Jimmy I think a later bedtime would be a good idea, thanks. Just spoken to another mum and she was shocked how early our kids go to bed. That's how I feel Morganly, but hopefully he has recognised that I will crack up without more input from him. Thanks S x

[PiccalilliSandwiches]

I just had a Google and it looks like the other site has a free online parenting course you could try. There are others too. I know it's not as good as going in person but better than nothing.

This was a great support thread for shouters that I found very helpful. It's not active now but a read through may be helpful.

Good luck.

[CurlyhairedAssassin]

"Just spoken to another mum and she was shocked how early our kids go to bed."

But what time IS their bedtime, you haven't actually said.

[MrsO1980]

Great Picalilli, I hadn't thought of online courses. Will definitely check those out!art the bedtime routine at about 6pm and boys in bed 6.30/45. Is that really early? x

[PiccalilliSandwiches]

I think that's too early, yes. Mine (2.5DD and 5DS) go up at 630ish, bed by 7 and asleep by 715-730. They are by far the earliest of all my friends.

Perhaps try an 8pm bedtime and, as suggested up thread, work it back by 15 mins per night til it's obvious where they're natural bedtime fits.

[PiccalilliSandwiches]

CBeebies finishes at 7pm for a reason....!

[DisappointedOne]

My now 5 year old has gone to sleep before 8pm about 4 times in her whole life. We start bedtime these days (because of school) at about 8pm and she's usually asleep by 9pm (sometimes takes her longer).

6:45pm is practically lunchtime here!

[PiccalilliSandwiches]

Oh and it depends what time they are up. Ours have to be up at 615 as we leave early so that's why they have an early bedtime. What time are your DC up usually and what time do they need to be up?

[Fairylea]

I don't think 6.30 / 6.45 is particularly early. It depends on when they get up and how much activity they have during the day. Both mine have always been absolutely exhausted by 6 / 6.45 ish so I put them to bed when they seemed tired but they were both up every day about 5.30 and I just accepted it and got up with them, if I tried to push bedtime back they just got really grumpy etc etc.

[DisappointedOne]

My friend's LO has always been an early waker. They've spent 5 years trying to get her to wake later, but 5am seems to be her inbuilt alarm time. However, she's in bed between 6pm and 7pm so I guess they get their evening to themselves.

[CurlyhairedAssassin]

In bed by 6.30?! That's when we're sitting all having our tea, and we've done that for years (maybe tea was slightly earlier than that at age 4) Lights out used to be 7pm when mine were babies/toddlers (agree that there is a reason CBeebies finishes at 7!). But by 4-5, it was probably nearer 8pm. I started the slow bedtime routine at 7: pjs, teeth, stories, cuddles and final little bedtime chat with lights off by 8. They were usually asleep within 20 mins. So I can understand why your friends are shocked at the early bed time.

I was quite wary of not putting mine to bed before they were ready to sleep because I have awful memories of being put to bed at 7.30-8 pm at age 10, my sister amd I listening to our friends still playing out in the street on a light summer's night and looking out the window from our bunk bed at them. We would be wide awake for ages after and get up to mischief and laugh and giggle then get told off nearly every night for not going to sleep. Sometimes smacked.

I get on great with my mum and dad now and have asked them why they put us to bed so early and She admits that by the evening time she just wanted some child-free time with my dad so sent us to bed. She does think that looking back it was too early and feels bad for thinking that way.

It's only a few years that parents get a child-free evening. then gradually they need less and less sleep and you have to compromise on what the telly viewing is! My youngest is 9 now - lights off at 9pm, and by the time I've come down and got a cuppa, I'm nearly ready for bed myself. I loved it when they were toddlers and DH and I could have a night of telly watching on the sofa with a glass of wine from about 8pm. Those days are long gone and soon enough, my two will be wanting to stay up after us, no doubt!

Sorry, rambling.....

But anyway, Maybe think about a new bedtime. May need a bit of tweaking till you find the ideal time.

[CurlyhairedAssassin]

Just to point out, as well, that if your DS DOES manage to drop off to sleep by, say, 7pm, don't forget that if he does come into a light sleep in the night at 3am due to the duvet falling off, needing a drink of water, having a wierd dream etc, then he will have already had 8 hours sleep - no wonder he would have trouble settling back down again.

[mummymeister]

OP what you have to decide is,

Is silent return more distressing than what you are currently going through? No, thought not. sorting out issues like this is all about your behaviour and your partners. you have to have a plan, you have to communicate it to your child and you both have to stick with it come what may. not try it for a couple of nights then give up. Boys in bed by 6.30 is way too early in my opinion. we started the routine at 7.15 or 7.30 as some kids particularly those who aren't out and about all the time aren't tired at 6 at all.

[LibrariesGaveUsP0wer]

If you haven't tried it, I would definitely recommend trying a later bedtime. 6.30 is really early for us. Our kids are in bed by 8 generally, closer to 7.30 if really tired. More like 8.30 at weekends in the summer (weirdly, they are definiltely more tired when the days are short).

If he is a child who doesn't find sleeping 'easy', being sent to bed when he's not yet ready is likely to be really difficult. I don't drop off easily and the frustration of lying there would be very difficult for a child to sit through.

[rosy71]

Being in bed at 6.30 seems ridiculously early to me. Mine have rarely been in bed before 7.30/8pm. Ds2 is 7 and, despite being in bed at 8ish, is often awake until 10pm. He reads with a torch under the covers sometimes! Mine knew they had to stay in their rooms once they were in bed, but they could read or listen to story CDs. Sometimes they draw or write too.

I would also make sure he's getting tired enough in the day. Both mine need lots of exercise!

[PenelopeChipShop]

The bedtime sounds too early to me. If you work f/t presumably he's in nursery or after school club until early evening? Not a criticism, mine is too!

But what I've found is that on the days I work my DS needs quite a bit of time to wind down after the busyness of childcare - just quietly reconnecting with me and his toys and enjoying being at home. If I bundle him off to bed too early on those days it just takes longer for him to settle as he's a bit 'wired'. I'd rather let him play and chill downstairs til he's in the right frame of mind to settle. Does that make any sense?

[MrsO1980]

Hi everyone, sorry for the late reply. I think DH has anxieties about later bedtime but this may just save my sanity. I agree he does seem 'wired' and probably follows me by needing a long wind down before being able to sleep. So I took the boys out for a long walk this afternoon for some fresh air. I wouldn't usually as we went to a party this morning. DS2 ate food at party and a boiled egg and soldiers. We came home, also ate spag Bol and supper - result! The boys watched a film with me (and DH when he got home) and went to bed at 8pm, I played with him in his bedroom and then read him a story... He's asleep! Fingers crossed he will sleep until the morning with this later bedtime (I'll post tomorrow to update). Thanks do much for your comments and advice. S x

[LibrariesGaveUsP0wer]

Bear in mind that you need to trial the letter bedtime for a couple of weeks at least. Otherwise it might be like that annoying thing where you wake up at 6.45 on your day off, the old 'wake ' setting is still turned on.

Does he like books? Could you let him look at his favourite picture books in bed for a few minutes on his own before bed? As he learns to read he can progress to that.

[PiccalilliSandwiches]

Glad you had a better evening. Hope it's the first of many.

Meant to say too that term 1 in reception my DS was like the devil incarnate at home - tantrum was too mild a word. A year on and he's the loveliest settled boy with the very occasional tantrum but don't they all! So don't be too worried about the behaviour just yet. Strategy and consistency and majorly praise the good behaviour.

You're being a great mum by even considering how you can do it better.

[nottheop]

The key is to not give too much attention to bad behaviour.

I think I'd minimise the routine, when it's too long they can get a second wind. So; pjs, milk downstairs and then teeth, one book if he sits in bed quietly. The one song and bed. Let him choose between 2 options not the whole library, any messing and he gets none.

We take the lightbulb out of the light, just a nightlight. When he was difficult we'd then sit outside his door and put him back to bed but no negotiations - you cannot show weaknesses or any inconsistencies. No talking. Don't give him the chance to run around by camping out outside his door. If he won't just climb over a stair gate I'd use one.

I'd repeat the same at night for any wakings. Get a sleeping bag so you don't get cold.

We use the naughty step. He gets sent to his room too. As a rule we say 1, 2 and naughty step at 3 but now we rarely get to that. Biting would be straight to the step.

I think he's playing up for attention.

[CurlyhairedAssassin]

"Bear in mind that you need to trial the later bedtime for a couple of weeks at least."

Yes, I agree with this. He may still be up early in the morning. And consequently be a little devil by early evening tomorrow. Don't be tempted to send him to bed early tomorrow night to compensate, try and keep him going instead (but in a calm way).

You may have to be strict with your DH too! Took me ages to convince my DH that we needed to start family meal times once the kids started to go to bed later when they were past toddler age. I was getting very pissed off with cooking the kids a meal at 5.30 before DH got home, clearing up after that, settling the kids into bed later on, coming down knackered only to cook another bloody meal for me and DH. (Or if he cooked for us it still meant eating late then having to clear up before we went to bed). It left hardly any proper relaxation time of an evening. We always seemed to be cooking, clearing up or doing the bedtime routine Plus, DS2 was fussy with food and I felt it would do him good to eat as a family and see us enjoying things other than nuggets and pizza!

DH wasn't convinced - he liked the old routine of one of us getting the kids settled asleep in bed by 8pm while the other one cooked a meal for me and DH, making for a calm and child-free evening meal and an adult catch up without being interrupted. He soon realised that as the kids got older, needed a later bedtime, that actually the time that they went to sleep got later too, which meant that our supposedly calm couples only meal was interrupted by not-quite-asleep-yet kids asking random questions about why the sky goes dark at night and suchlike. Hard to give a non-shouty answer while your meal is going cold.

Anyway......family meal times worked out better. Kids enjoyed the social aspect of eating as a family, DS2 became gradually less fussy due to being exposed to more sophisticated food, only one lot of cooking and cleaning up, able to give our full non-shouty attention to trivial questions/messing about from the kids once in bed. Ok, so since then there has been a lot less couple time of an evening, but if you have kids that has to come sooner or later and anyway, once they are a bit older than yours they become quite good company and you start to feel like a unit rather than parents looking after kids.