To get annoyed by this FB status and think that nurses are not angels?

[lougle]

I'm not a big FB user. I tend to scroll through the news feed and rarely post. Today I saw a post about nurses. It basically told off patients for ringing their call buzzer for a cup of tea because nurses are really busy and have very much more important things to do, then sneered about being called stupid 'by someone who didn't even finish 10th grade'.

AIBU to think that nurses choose to work as a nurse and patients shouldn't have to worry about whether a nurse has had his/her break before asking for a cup of tea (when they're not allowed to get it themselves)?

(I'm a nurse).

[dontwantlinked8]

We have a system of color coordinated trays for meals, one colour indicates that they need assistance/monitoring and that the tray shouldn't be touched by non nursing staff. Helps to make sure at a glance that everyone is getting the right help.

[dontwantlinked8]

I had 3 days training - and absolutely none of it was relevant to the role at all. Lots and lots of stuff about how to cover yourself against complaints and little else. It was also done four months after I'd started my job...

I was lucky though when I started to have been in the position of having been in and out of hospital all my life - as a patient and relative - so knew what they were looking for, but others would struggle. I felt thrown in the deep end on my first day and was doing things that are dangerous with no experience. I think most other nhs trusts are better at training though.

The majority of HCA jobs rely on common sense and your own attitude towards others though. Talking, helping with water/food, welcoming relatives, changing a bed, reassuring, preparing patients to eat .. noone should need training for that and if they do they're in the wrong job.

16k isn't our starting salary - I'm 18 months in and I get £15800 (so just shy of it I guess)

[frumpet]

sorry posted too soon , my point is this was happening in my trust well before the mid staffs disaster . NHS trust's seem to work in isolation , surely the best ideas should be taken on by all of them . This includes technology as well , how many nurses on here work with doctors who work in other trusts who tell you about technology that is far superior to that which you are working with ? they might only be working geographically 20-30 miles away too . Patients deserve the best wherever they are surely ?

[frumpet]

We have a really good system in our trust with regards food and drink , each ward has a designated nutrional assistant ( think housekeeper in father ted ) so basically unless you are dead or strictly NBM they will offer you food and drink until you actually eat and drink !

When I trained it was drummed into us the importance of nutrition , plus an extensive waitressing background , that means I would never plonk a tray down in front of someone and walk away . I remove the lid off the main course , undo any tricky packaging , make sure the patient is in a position to reach it and actually wants it , if they pull a face , they get something else . If they need help eating it , then they get help . If I think they might struggle cutting it up , I offer my knife and fork services !

Nurses don't start drug rounds until everyone is fed or there are enough people around to feed anyone who needs help. Mealtimes take about half an hour start to finish .

[cleaty]

Senpai - Yes that happens in some hospitals. It doesn't work. Most people in the UK who are in hospital more than overnight, are very ill. Many people need help to eat, or at least the food placed somewhere where they can eat it. Many people can't eat certain things, and confused and very ill patients are not always able to communicate or remember what would be dangerous for them to eat.

Cafeteria workers would work in a fracture ward such as my partner was in. Even though who were bedbound, could advocate for themselves, no one was confused. That is not typical in UK wards.

[Senpai]

Here in the US we have cafeteria workers bring us food. They drop the food off and leave. The nurses will do rounds and check vitals to make sure you're doing ok.

Could something like that work in the UK? Surely you don't need to pay cafeteria workers as much as a nurse and it would allow nurses to do their jobs better.

[treaclesoda]

I don't think patient's have much faith in reporting incidents of poor care. I had reason some time ago to report a doctor (he misdiagnosed me, despite having refused to examine me. The nurse, who actually had examined me diagnosed me correctly and he argued with her that she was wrong). I got a generic 'we were unable to trace the doctor in question' response (despite me being able to name him).

The vast majority of nurses that I have come across in hospital have been lovely, despite working under very obvious pressure. But the bad ones are truly frightening. And scarily the bad ones often seem to end up nursing the elderly who are the most vulnerable of all (although undoubtedly also the most difficult to nurse).

[cleaty]

That is interesting, thanks. Because some HCAs are very good at this, but not all.

[Sallystyle]

I got two weeks training.

8 hours every day, classroom and ward based. We also now have to do the care certificate in 12 weeks of starting.

It was drummed into us not to talk to colleagues while doing personal care unless you involve the patients and the conversation is appropriate.

[cleaty]

Also whenever I have posted on MN about really poor treatment by nurses or HCAs, I always simply get told that I should have reported it to PALS. When I have been in hospital I have been really ill. The last thing I was up to was pursuing a complaint after getting discharged.

[cleaty]

Do HCAs get much training? I find some brilliant, and others although they do their job, not so good. So are they taught that two of them dealing with a patient, chatting to each other, but ignoring the patient, feels profoundly dehumanising? The task still gets done. But the manner in which it is done, matters.

[AlbertHerbertHawkins]

An excellent post orange. When you work in a specialist area often even quite senior medics ask for your help interpreting data, lives literally are in your hands and all your specialist knowledge is required to ensure patient safety, but yet patronising attitudes ensure that you remember your place and woe betide you if you don't smile!

[spidey66]

I'm a nurse (working in community mental health) and find it slightly patronising to be thought of as an angel because of my career choice.

I was on the other side of the medicine trolley last week, spending 2 nights on a surgical ward following a hysterectomy. Apart from one occasion when I did ask for tea (I'd just come from surgery, hadn't eaten or drank anything for 24 hours and was off me head on residual anaesthetic and morphine), I only pressed my bell on a handful of occasions, mainly for water or because my catheter bag needed emptying. Oh and one occasion when I was drying off after a shower and pulled a cannula out of my hand causing blood to pour over the place. I think cos I'm in the trade I'm actually low maintenance. Two days post discharge I had to be talked into ringing 111 due to increased pain...it turned out I had a UTI which needed an increase in painkillers and some antibiotics.

[Orangesox]

Wow. I'm actually a long term lurker on MN but I felt I needed to post on this thread... I don't think nurses are angels, but then I don't think anyone deserves to be venerated as some saint like being for undertaking the duties of their vocation - it is nice however, to feel a little appreciated.

That said... the sneering FB post is VILE! Whatever happen to non-discriminatory, unbiased, quality care for all?

In the interests of defending my profession, would like to highlight the following to the nurse bashers out there

I'm a nurse, I work in a specialised area where I deal with the stress and illness experienced by my trust's workforce. I took this pathway for many reasons, not least of all because I needed to leave hands on clinical care because I was attacked by a patient requiring years of physiotherapy and surgery, but also because mentally I couldn't cope with the pressure being mounted up on me every.single.day. As a junior nurse who'd only just finished their training, I was expected to take charge of a ward of 32 acutely ill surgical patients who hadn't yet been triaged by the surgical teams with two agency nurses and two (amazing) HCA's to back me up... Does that strike any of you as appropriate or safe?

When I sit and listen to my clients who are under stress in their jobs (nurses, doctors, HCA's, security staff, porters, pharmacists alike), what strikes me the most is that 99.9% of these people are under self imposed purgatory because they don't feel like they can ever do "enough" for our patients. I understand it completely, because I've been there, I've sat in my car and cried after losing yet another patient, I've missed my breaks countless times and failed to hydrate myself properly because we're not allowed to eat or drink on the ward, I've ended up with kidney infections and worse because I was made to feel like I couldn't let my team down and take the time off I needed to seek medical advice from my GP.

Also, it dismays me to read that nursing apparently isn't very "intellectually demanding". I'd like to see your average non-intellectual do a drug round with any one of my nursing colleagues... you might then see the screw ups we pick up on a daily basis where one of our medical colleagues has prescribed a drug that a patient is fatally allergic to, or where we need to use our medical and nursing knowledge to omit drugs prescribed, which could in fact kill our patient given their current medical presentation.

[Wheretheresawill1]

Look at agenda for change that has all pay scales

[Sallystyle]

Just over 15k for a new HCA in my trust.

[mikado1]

Here are some things that have recently been said to my elderly father while in hospital for a few days: 'You are the last on our list let me tell you' (having rung for help getting to the toilet) and 'You should wear incontinence pads, your poor family having to get up and help you (for the same thing at night, even though he is not incontinent at all.) He was roomed beside the nurses' station, where he heard them chatting while he waited 20mins for assistance having rung the bell. I think some nurses are simply desensitised. I have seen similar in teaching-teachers speaking to young children with little or no respect. It's very sad to think the most vulnerable and dependent can be spoken to like that by the people supposed to take care of them.

Otoh I had a wonderful experience in hospital recently after my baby was born though I was low/no maintenance, I saw them go over and above on the ward, literally going nonstop.

[Wheretheresawill1]

16663 is the starting salary for HCAs in the UK according to agenda for change 19646 after 6yrs plus enhancements. So please quote correctly. There is less than 2k difference between a newly qualified staff nurse with a hell of a lot more responsibility and a HCAs with 6yrs experience. But this isn't a hca vs nurse bashing thread. Most of us respect each other's roles. However as a band 6 deputy ward manager I earned less than a hca at the top of their banding on nights.
Private sector pay is appalling. Why people choose those council hca jobs when there are so many better paid, better conditions NHS jobs is beyond me. I can only guess it's to do with not having the necessary nvq.

A final note to the person who commented that nursing is not intellectual. Maybe in the 1940s.... Things move on... The sheer number of medications we use and need to understand has changed; equipment has changed; people live longer. Nurse specialists prescribe, manage caseloads, mentor the junior doctors. Many of us now have dared to further our education so that we provide evidence based care- my Msc although much derided by the too posh to wash brigade of the matron years helps me provide the very best up to date care and support other nurses in doing so. Nursing is changing whether you like it or not and I expect to not only be renumerated for what I do but also to have a sense of satisfaction. Finally families need to start helping more when patients are in hospital- it baffles me why a relative cannot get up from a chair and get a drink for their relative. Let's all work together

[cleaty]

The quality of nursing and HCA care you receive as an ill patient in hospital, is crucial. And I am not talking about cups of tea. Being hydrated, having obs taken properly and any concerns reported, having food you can eat, all of these things done wrongly can kill you.

I remember simply being grateful that every meal time there was something very soft that I could actually manage to eat.

When you are very ill, you are very vulnerable. You can't stand up for yourself as you can do when you are more well. So you are very dependent on nurses and HCAs actually caring about you and doing their job properly.

[lougle]

This is not a nurse bashing thread -I'm a nurse.

It's a sneery post on FB bashing thread.

[AlbertHerbertHawkins]

We haven't had a doctor bashing thread in a while. Strange that in the context of their dispute over contracts currently. You never see, for example prison officer bashing threads or firefighter bashing because I presume those professions are less visible. I do think nurses are looked down upon and kept in their place in these threads. I personally have had very poor experiences with solicitors but I think, probably, if I started a thread about them it would not gain traction. I think, partly, it is because of the emotional impact of the fear of the cruel, uncaring nurse looking after you when you are at your most vulnerable but I do feel that nurses are held, often, to unreasonable standards in comparison to other professions.

[Sallystyle]

Cleaty, I agree the roles have changed, and as I said above a retired HCA told me the same recently.

I apologise as I read your tone wrong.

[RoobyTuesday]

IT really shouldn't be about who gets paid more than who. Both health care assistants and nurses are probably underpaid. As a nurse I certainly disagree that my job isn't intellectually demanding. I work in a specialist area where I see, diagnose and treat patients with a particular condition. I also prescribe complex medications. I have a masters degree and have worked bloody hard to get where I am today - academically AND putting in the hours and hours of hard graft on the wards to work my way up.
I was a health care assistant before I did my training. All through my training I worked as an HCA. That was physically demanding, stressful work. But I actually I preferred it to working as a qualified nurse on the ward, there is way to much pressure on ward nurses who carry so much responsibility with so little senior support.
I do agree about the 'nurses are Angels' crap on FB though. Of course we are not Angels. We are normal human beings who get tired, stressed and resentful just like anyone else when we are constantly asked to pull ourselves in 5 directions at the same time.

[cleaty]

My point is that nursing has changed enormously. What nurses used to do when I was a child, is what HCAs now do. What nurses now do today, is what junior Drs did when I was a child.

So when old people talk about nurses not doing any or little nursing, they are talking about all the tasks HCAs now do. That is not to blame nurses in hospitals, they have enough to do. But their role is not what nurses used to do. So old people saying that, are simply saying the truth.

[Sallystyle]

Yes I know and they should be properly treated by managers. But HCAs are really what used to be called nurses. It is those staff who do the actual nursing.

We do more of what nurses used to do maybe but we don't do most of the 'actual nursing'

I change beds, wash patients, change certain dressings, obs rounds, feeding, hoisting, toileting etc, assisting with certain procedures, some paper work and general ward maintenance.

A nurse does much more. Yes, we do the hands on care so patients see us the most but nurses are doing things like meds, waterlow scores, admissions, discharges, working with SS and so so much more. And yes, it is intellectually demanding.

HCA's are awfully underpaid and we work in very tough conditions. Nurses are underpaid as well and working in even tougher conditions as they have the accountability that we don't.