pensioners crying in Greece, uk residents should help them out

[marrqkashg]

Really breaks my heart to see pensioners in Greece crying over their pension being HALVED! There seems to be a lack of outrage about this in the uk. I really do think our foreign aid should go to these pensioners as they are much closer than other countries we donate to.

Greek accountancy laws are some of the most complex in the world. There is a special module of the accounting system we use that is designed just for Greece. This complexity actively discourages companies from doing business in Greece, and when they do makes it possible for them to minimise tax quite effectively.

Perhaps the Greek government might want to start there if they want to climb out of this hole they're in.

You reap what you sow. I agree with grovelthat the Greek people avoided paying tax, retired at 50, public sector jobs really bloated, pensions bloated.

Instead of voting in a government who would aim to reign in the excesses and start paying back their debts, they voted for a Government whose mantra is spend, borrow more, don't pay back and repeat.

I have zero sympathy.

Perhaps if Greeks had ever, ever paid their taxes, instead of living in half built houses and professionally tax avoiding
Yes this goes back as far as I can remember.I went to Greece many, many times on holidays in the 1970's, 80's and 90's. It was only when I went to a Spanish resort for the first time that the penny dropped. There were pavements, street lights, promenades and facilities. All completely absent in any Greek resort because no one would pay the tax to fund infrastructure investment.
I recall sitting in a cafe when the owner came round chuckling and giving out fake bills showing tax paid because the tax inspector was calling.

Still I love Greece and the Greek people and feel very sad about this whole mess.

"Instead of voting in a government who would aim to reign in the excesses and start paying back their debts, they voted for a Government whose mantra is spend, borrow more, don't pay back and repeat."

^ This. And now they are likely about to vote for "NO to your conditions. Just give us the money."

A decade of overspending: How Greece plunged into economic crisis.

What is happening in Greece is terrible, but they can't expect someone else to pay for their mismanagement. Average basic pension in Greece is about 800 euros, in Slovakia and Slovenia it's half that. Yet Slovakia and Slovenia have paid towards the eurozone bailout, so that the Greek pensioners keep their higher pensions. That is not fair either.

I sympathise with the pensioners (who are sometimes only 60 so not exactly old). Given the atrocities happening elsewhere in the world and the poverty here at home, they are far from being the most compelling recipients for foreign aid. Greece has problems that they need to sort out, not be bailed out.

A family member who is a banker was was sent to Greece for a year in a leadership capacity. He was discouraged by the corruption.

Russia will bail out Greece

How much did the crowd funding make in the end?

As others have said, they voted in a government who would spend spend spend so that's why, that and not paying tax.
People wouldn't help out anyway, all most people care about is themselves.

www.socialeurope.eu/2015/06/greece-germany-and-the-eurozone/

Maybe read this before judging. The SYRIZA government has actually proposed changes to their tax system and wanted to consult the ILO on changes to how their unions operate, but the troika dismissed this, instead demanding indefinite austerity in order to run a primary surplus and create growth. As Varoufakis and others, like Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz (not exactly a lightweight) have pointed out, these policies are actually incompatible. This is really about punishing people, and setting a precedent so other poor European countries don't get ideas about alternatives to public service cuts, dismantling workers rights and higher taxes for the poor. Yes, there is corruption in Greece, yes there is tax avoidance. But imposing starvation on old people, and the many children of unemployed parents who depend on their grandparents, and stealing the future prospects of a whole generation of youths in order to pay private banks money they don't need and shouldn't have lended in the first place is positively barbaric. My DH 's parents have had their (already not very high) pensions cut by 1/3 since the crisis, and yesterday they only got paid half. We have to send them money for their rent every month. DH 's cousin is a 34 year old lawyer but still lives with his parents and will probably never have the money to move out. This is the case for the majority of his friends except those who left the country. My BIL is a 37 year old college lecturer who couldn't get work in Greece and now works in Starbucks in London in order to support his child. The mother lost her job yesterday. Sit on your high horse and talk about irresponsible Greeks "having their nails done" if you want. Such people probably do exist, but ask yourself if that justifies taking food out of the mouths of children. Your lack of empathy makes me want to cry.

I feel very sorry for the people but I don't think the way their govt is behaving is helping at all.

I was trying to imagine if that had happened here- very scary.

isnt

"demanding indefinite austerity"

Aren't you being a bit melodramatic? There is no demanding of indefinite austerity - i.e. to the end of time, forever and ever.

Indefinite doesn't mean permanent, Cote .

Ah sorry, I misunderstood that one.

IMF's conditions cannot have specific timeframes, though. How long you'll have to follow austerity measures depends on how quickly certain reforms are implemented, revenues raised (e.g. through privatisations), and economic measures are brought to within norm.

Robotic - Greece was never forced to accept these loans - you cannot force a country to accept a bail out! They asked for these bail outs, and even the current government want more bailouts. They just don't want to have to pay it back.

Yes, it is very sad and people ARE sympathetic, but there is only so much sympathy you can have when this is pretty much entirely a self imposed situation. Greece might have proposed changes to their tax laws, but the other eurozone countries just don't have any faith that they will follow through.

It's pretty childish to say this is about "punishing" a country. Where do you think Germany is getting the money to fund these bailouts? It's not from some faceless big name bank. It's from their own tax payers!

Cote Greec has spent more than 50 of the past 100 years repaying debt and running a deficit. For most people under the age of 50, that looks damn near like forever.

There are many problems. Firstly Greece is a socialist country that believe everyone is entitled, and other people should pay. Much like the socialist ethos in every other welfare state in the world.

Secondly, they cannot be allowed to default on their debts. A default triggers payouts on credit default swaps and derivitives, which no-one can pay anywhere in the world, so any failure to pay must be swept under the carpet and mopped up by either rolling it up into even more debt and kicking the can further down the road, or taking in onto the books of the IMF or ECB, collateralising it, moving it off balance sheet, and effectively writing it off.

Of course no-one actually loses any money here at all. This is not real money. It is artificially created digits in a computer system. The hurt to the people of Greece is purely political. It is a way of the greater entity punishing the political class of the weaker entity, by punishing its people.

And, no. We as a people have no obligation to moral duty to bail out pensioners in Greece. It's not like they haven't known for more than a decade that their country is bankrupt. It's not like they haven't known for more than 40 years that they have been living well beyond their means.

Let's get our own house in order first. Or just continue to pretend it couldn't happen here if that works for you.

I'd also like to point out that Varoufakis is a fucking scumbag.

It is morally repugnant to compare the people lending Greece money to "terrorists" just a few days after over 30 people lost their lives in a sea of blood in an act of ACTUAL terrorism.

Actually, none of their current political leaders seem to know what the fuck they are doing. Saying horrifically emotive insults about your lenders does not exactly warm them to you and pave the way for a deal which works well for you. If anything, it makes them even less sympathetic and less likely to compromise.

If I were Greek I'd be much less pissed off with Germany, and way more pissed off with my own Government for - what appears to be - their deliberate sabotage of trying to sort out this mess.

How do we help? They need money into the economy but their economy costs more than it brings in. Debt relief when many of the loans including the UK cost the country lending as they are in the red themselves. It would need to be Red Cross type aid as I am not sure I would like to send money not knowing if was going to the people or paying another country's loan interest. We have other Europeon countries who if Greece has better terms and deals could consider it to be a better risk to default as well.

goodness Taxpayers don't fund bailouts. Central banks create money. That is what they do. This belief that national debt is in some way perpetrated upon, and paid for by tax payers is exactly what you are meant to believe. Because it created within the people an acceptance of auserity and obligation, and removed sympathy for other countries that your televisions and newspapers tell you have been profligate, lazy and feckless. Little could be further from the truth.

It is a bit ridiculous to expect citizens of countries that have to work well into their 60s to bail out greeces citizen so they can retire at 50!!!!

"Greec has spent more than 50 of the past 100 years repaying debt"

Yes, Greece has always had a sizeable national debt like many other countries including UK and US. Many countries have been repaying debt since forever without this causing such economic crises.

Greece's problem is that it went credit-happy when it saw that it could get money at very low EU rates once it joined the Eurozone, and ballooned its national debt by 2.5x since then.

No I don't agree. I sympathise with Greeks up to a point but they can't keep on taking their pensions at 50 and working only four months a year if they're in the tourist industry. And sitting around in cafes whining. Sorry I am losing the sympathy I had.