To think you can't just brush it under the carpet?

[CrohnicallyInflexible]

Disclaimer: I have AS so I really don't know which of us is unreasonable here.

I have had a 'difference of opinion' with someone. They asked me not to contact them any more as they were upset. I have apologised for hurting them, and asked what it is exactly I have done wrong (due to AS I find it difficult to work out, other person knows this) they responded reiterating that they want to be left alone, this time they were quite rude (shouting).

Fair enough, I haven't contacted them since. They did however invite DH over a few weeks later. He asked if they were willing to talk about what had happened yet, and the answer was 'can we just forget about it?'

Well, actually, no I can't. I still
don't know what I have done wrong, so I am at risk of repeating the mistake inadvertently. And there has been no acknowledgement that we were both partly responsible. No apology has been forthcoming.

So is the other person U for wanting to just forget about it without apologising/sorting things out? Or AIBU for not being able to forget things as easily as this person apparently can?

[CrohnicallyInflexible]

Thanks for all your comments and advice. I'm happy to give her as much space and time as she needs- if I can't talk things out with her then it will be months before the anxiety reduces enough. I just hope that when the time comes to see each other again I can cope with it.

midnite I really can't do this type of conversation on the phone. Casual chat, yes, if it's someone I know well. Business call, yes, but I like to prepare and have a 'script'. Anything emotional? If I get anxious, I can't process what I'm hearing. My thoughts go too fast and mixed up, so I can't 'translate' them into speech. And I can't modulate my voice well, so end up squeaking or worse! A typical conversation of this sort would end up with me just going 'but, but, but, but' on repeat, meanwhile I have no idea what the other person is trying to tell me.

[CinnabarRed]

if I can't talk things out with her then it will be months before the anxiety reduces enough. I just hope that when the time comes to see each other again I can cope with it

I mean this kindly, and am posting to try to explain it to you - but that kind of statement would, if I were your SIL, really get my back up.

It reads as emotional blackmail. It reads as "Do it my way or else". It reads as "If I can't cope then it's your fault".

It could also be taken as a bit threatening, given that she knows when you don't cope you storm out and slam doors, and she can't cope with that.

I absolutely accept that you may don't mean it that way.

Now imagine if your SIL, who you know is having a hard time, wrote: "If I talk things through with her [meaning you] then it will be months before the anxiety reduces enough. I just hope that when the time comes to see each other again I can cope without screaming at her"? How would that seem to you?

Again, I understand that you're writing to us and not to her, but I'll bet that your writing style is indicative of the way you interact with people more generally, because that's the case for all of us.

Please do try to remember that your SIL is already coping with whatever else is going on in her life, and maybe she simply can't cope with dealing with you too.

Let me give you an example. My friend is currently splitting from her H, and I know she wants to spend more time with me that we do. But I work FT, my oldest has just been diagnosed with a chronic medical condition that requires frequent hospitalisation and then catching up his school work, I have two younger children aged 3 and 5, I've got to have treatment to remove pre-cancer cells next week, my DB is getting married in less than a month, my DM has just accepted that her mobility is so poor she needs to use her wheelchair permanently, and my DH is up for a massive promotion at work. I do not have head space or time for more than quick catch-ups with my friend, even though I love her and she matters to me very much.

[CinnabarRed]

And, as an adult, whether NT or AS, your anxiety is for you to manage, not your SIL.

Of course it would be the kind thing to do for her to minimise triggers for you, in so far as she is able.

But the anxiety is yours and you have to 'own' it, you see?

[AuntyMag10]

Op I think you need to give her some space. Seems like she is dealing with issues of her own and not willing to drag out more of this problem with you which is fair enough. A lot of talk about her not Willing to understand, accept and cater to your situation but she doesn't really have to does she.
The anxiety requires everything to revolve around how you feel, which understandably is out of your control. Otoh she doesn't need to work around this as well. She may also be concerned how this affects her brother.

[Whiteshirt]

I think that's a good summary, Cinnabar. OP, can you reverse the situations and see how that might make you feel? And acknowledge that while, obviously, your AS dictates elements of how you engage with the world, a family member with (you imply) a lot going on in her own life may have neither the time nor the patience currently to deal with your needs in the detail that you do?

[CrohnicallyInflexible]

I accept that it might read as emotional blackmail to you, but I didn't write it that way, and because I didn't write it like that I'm having trouble reading it like that. I wrote it/read it as a simple statement of fact, maybe with a touch of pessimism thrown in! She can't cope with me at the moment, I can't cope with her, so let's stay apart till we can- no blackmail there. If it were reversed, I would simply say 'I hope you can cope too!'

I think I see what you mean about 'owning' my anxiety, but I admit I'm finding it really hard. I'm on medication, I've tried CBT and counselling (admittedly before my diagnosis, not sure if it would be more helpful now we know about that) and I'm madly researching a lot to do with ASD/anxiety/meltdowns, but like I said earlier, a lot of the information out there is based on children and gives advice to the adults in their lives (avoiding triggers, prompting the child to take time out, discussing other people's perspectives etc). I never had that sort of help as a child. It's really helpful to get possible other perspectives on here, but I'm struggling, it's not as easy as 'take time out when you're stressed' because I don't always recognise it in time, if I do recognise it then I'm often unable to make a decision as to what to do. I am working on a script, and DH training me to use it, but it takes repetition and therefore time.

[CrohnicallyInflexible]

auntymag no, she doesn't have to understand or cater to me- but then she also has to accept that if she doesn't I might find it too hard to see her at the moment. Again, not blackmail, just simple fact. To borrow another poster's comparison, if I were in a wheelchair and went to her house and she just said 'I can't cope with accommodating your wheelchair at the moment' then you wouldn't think I was blackmailing her by not going round.

[CinnabarRed]

She can't cope with me at the moment, I can't cope with her, so let's stay apart till we can

But that's exactly what's she's proposed - drawing a line under it and moving on! You really can't thrash it out by text (and I completely get why you as an individual can't do it by phone) so what other option is there if you both agree that you need to stay apart?

I'm sorry that you're struggling. I don't have enough experience of AS to be able to offer anything more concrete that my best wishes. But there will be people here who can help.

Might it be worth starting a separate thread about your AS diagnosis/anxiety?

[CatOfTheWoods]

OP different situation, but as an example of something that gives me similar levels of anxiety and can lead to meltdowns, I can't stand it when people are indecisive and things don't happen because of dithering. I cannot bear to be in a situation where people are using up precious time by going "ooh shall we do this? Shall we do that? Ooh I don't know..." and it has led to situations where I've cried/shouted/stormed out.

Now I know I have AS, that makes sense. But I also have to learn that is just how people roll and it's my responsibility to find a way not to get into that situation, or to get out of it quickly and politely if I see it coming. The solution is not to make my involvement with people dependent on them making allowances for me and doing things my way so that I can cope. The fact is, in some cases, I just can't cope. If I don't want to get into an emotional storm and have anxiety rolling on for weeks, I have to take control of what situation I am in – but I can't take control of what other people do, or act as if by not doing what I want, they are responsible for how I feel. They're not. They can make allowances if they care to but not everyone is going to.

One way for me to manage this is to see other people, NT people, as having their own special needs (I don't mean that dismissively). Their needs may make no sense to me and may make me angry, but I can deal with them best by seeing that they can't help it. My friend has an inbuilt need to dither for Britain. My neighbour needs to rabbit on pointlessly in the name of being friendly. Your SIL has a need to brush things under the carpet because she can't face dealing with them.

[CrohnicallyInflexible]

I don't think that is what she proposed- she invited DH and me round, I said I wanted to talk about it (in person) she said she wanted to just forget about it (meaning she wanted me to come round and 'play nice' as someone else put it) so I declined the invitation as I am not able to do that at the moment, it will be a while before I can do that.

I've been posting elsewhere about AS, it's just then you get lots of responses from people with AS who lean more towards my point of view. I needed some NT perspectives!

[CrohnicallyInflexible]

Thanks cat that's a useful way of thinking about it.

[btdtgtts]

OP and Cat, have you both seen this classic piece on the little-known but widespread disorder "allism"? It's a joke, but rather a true one...

www.fysh.org/~zefram/allism/allism_intro.txt

[MiscellaneousAssortment]

U

[WhereYouLeftIt]

CrohnicallyInflexible, I want to go back to your original concern, from your OP.

" [DH] asked if they were willing to talk about what had happened yet, and the answer was 'can we just forget about it?'

Well, actually, no I can't. I still don't know what I have done wrong, so I am at risk of repeating the mistake inadvertently. And there has been no acknowledgement that we were both partly responsible. No apology has been forthcoming.

So is the other person U for wanting to just forget about it without apologising/sorting things out? Or AIBU for not being able to forget things as easily as this person apparently can?"


I need to take this bit by bit:

"I still don't know what I have done wrong, so I am at risk of repeating the mistake inadvertently."
What you have done wrong is not realise that given she is having a tough time, she can't give priority to your anxiety. And by pursuing her, asking her to tell you what you have done wrong, you are effectively insisting that she does give your anxiety her top priority. She is not in a good place, a place where she can do that. Every time you ask her to talk about it, you actually ARE repeating the mistake. She could well feel under siege from your apparent desire to talk about your anxieties.

"Or AIBU for not being able to forget things as easily as this person apparently can?"
She is not forgetting. Nobody forgets, it's a turn of phrase only. By saying 'can we just forget about it' she is ASKING you to stop making it all about you and your anxieties. She is asking you for some kindness. She is asking for no more problems, she has enough already.

Could I suggest you show this thread to your DH? We don't know you as well as he does, (well we don't know you at all except for 'words on a screen') so it's possible he'll be able to put this into words that you'll find easier to take in.

[DazzleU]

OP asked for clarification SIL was rude back.


Even if SIL was under stress - she was still rude with no explication.

I know at times of stress other peoples concerns can be intensively irritating - we have older relatives who can bombard with trivial questions about minor thing at times they know are incredible stressful - sometime we can be short back and ask for space until a certain point is passed - but we'd explain why and put it down to lots of stress. They'd get an explanation even if we thought it should be obvious.

I don't think it's emotional blackmail if your having a hard time - like OP - to want to wait till your in a place to deal with someone who has been rude and who's future behaviour towards you might also be problematic - that just seems to be common sense to me.

As NT I'd probably assume it was them having a stressful time and would probably let them sweep everything under the carpet once. But them having a stressful time doesn't mean they get to treat me like shit and upset me - and they'd eventually get told that and/or avoided.

[hedgehogsdontbite]

Sometimes you have to accept that you don't always get the family you want/need. You can't change what they do and how they interract with you, you can only manage and change yourself. I don't see my family for years on end because they trigger so much anxiety in me and they are uncaring which makes me feel worse. It takes me at least a year to recover.

I don't think most people can begin to comprehend the anxiety levels involved when talking about ASD. My consultant told me that they measure anxiety on a scale of 1-100. Most people fluctuate between 5 and 15 on that scale. Stressful life events, like death of a loved one or divorce, can push people up to 30 or even 40 in some cases. He said that on average people with ASD function at around 40/45 and relatively minor stressors can raise that to 70 or 80, which is around the level expected of someone undergoing torture.

[murmuration]

This is tough OP. I, too, want to get to the bottom of things. And I can understand being on tenderhooks not understanding what was done wrong, in fear of repeating it.

But I think WhereYouLeftIt might have it -- from your OP and then the following text exchange, it looks like the thing that upset her was the asking if you'd upset her. It doesn't seem on the face of it seem logical on her part, but since she responded harshly to what seems to be a perfectly polite text, I woulc conclude that the thing that preceded the harshness was the problem. It might be it hit something in her life you don't know about, got to a sensitive part somehow, or whatever.

And from that point, you're talking past each other. Any further asking is doing exactly what you don't want to do, repeating the thing and making her more upset. She's trying to get you to stop by saying "just forget it", etc., but that in fact just makes you want to ask more because you don't understand. She might be in a place that it's difficult to communicate the concept that nothings wrong other than that you keep asking that's something wrong, as it is a strange concept and she just wants it to stop.

Does that sound it might be the case? You could ask your DH if it seems reasonable to him, and perhaps go forward with a working theory of what it was that you 'did wrong', and maybe that might help alleviate your anxiety.

[Theycallmemellowjello]

I agree, murmuration, it does sound like it could be that the thing that upset her was the text asking if OP had upset her! If she was having a hard time, maybe she was upset at the fact that OP assumed it was about her rather than expressed concern at how she was doing, maybe she was offended by lack of reciprocation in invites, or maybe she simply took it as a criticism of her. I don't think it was a completely fair reaction to OP's text which seems to have been innocently meant, but it's an understandable one.

At any rate, SIL seems to have her own problems, so I'd definitely assume that this is about those, rather than about her being angry or annoyed with you OP. If she wanted to express anger at you she would, but since she isn't I'd just accept that at face value.

I agree with the majority of posters that the sister has a right to her space and not to be asked about this. Fair enough if you can't be around her, but I suppose if it was me I'd be very sad indeed if my DP was not talking to my sister, so if it's possible I think it would be a good thing for your DH's sake to try to be civil around her in group situations and just avoid intense one on one contact.

TBH it doesn't sound like you're ever going to get the closure you want from this particular spat, frustrating as this is, so it might actually make things easier not harder if you start being around SIL again sooner rather than later. It might build up into more of a thing than it needs to be and get more difficult to resume contact.

Also and for what it's worth, I don't think she owes you an apology for shouting if this was done on the phone to your DH. She presumably didn't think you were listening in as it was a telephone conversation, and anyway she is entitled to her feelings and entitled to express them to her brother.

[CatOfTheWoods]

btdtgtts OMG! :) That link sums up what has been confusing me about other people all my life.

[CinnabarRed]

My DH does the repeatedly-asking-if-there's-something-wrong-or-if-he's-upset-me thing. And it drives me up the wall!

I'll be watching TV, or thinking about a work situation, or wondering what to have for lunch, and the conversation will go -

DH: What's up?
Me: Nothing (breezy tone).
DH: You're looking very serious.
Me: I'm fine.
DH: Are you sure?
Me: I just said so, darling. I'm fine, really.
DH: have I upset you?
Me: (getting narked) I told you, I'm fine. Honestly.
DH: you're not fine, I can tell.
Me: FFS, JUST LEAVE IT. I WAS
FINE; I'M NOT FINE NOW. ENOUGH ALREADY.
DH: I was only asking....

[CrohnicallyInflexible]

cinnabar serious question here. Why don't you just tell your DH 'nothing's wrong, this is my thinking face, I was thinking about what to have for lunch?'

I probably am guilty of doing this (only to DH though), not on purpose but I do find it very hard to read emotions and tone of voice, so if I interpret DH as looking cross or upset, ask him what's wrong, and he breezily replies 'nothing' I figure that people always say 'nothing' even when there is something wrong (there's loads of memes about it). And if there is something wrong, then I must have pissed him off because otherwise he would have told me what the matter is! How do I know which 'nothing' means nothing and which 'nothing' means something?

Whereas if he tells me 'I'm thinking' rather than 'nothing's wrong' I immediately think 'Oh, I've misinterpreted again!'

jello I take your point about it being harder rather than easier to see her after a long gap, that's what I meant about I hope I can cope when I do see her.

[CinnabarRed]

Good question.

In part, because DH is NT and is actually pretty good at interpreting emotions/tone of voice when he bothers.

In part because sometimes I haven't really formulated what I've been doing, I'm just being.

In part because sometimes I don't want to talk about what I'm thinking about (some of my work, for example, is confidential; or the DCs are around and I don't want to talk in front of them).

In part, the biggest part, because I'm an adult and expect to be treated as one by another adult. When there is something on my mind then I will tell him, at a suitable time, and we will address it together.

And, to be fair, IME the vast majority of adults who say "nothing" but don't mean it are using it as short-hand for "there's something but now isn't the right time [and if you keep pushing me about it right now then it's going to get my back up]".

I have absolutely no time for people who say "nothing" and then sulk.

[hedgehogsdontbite]

I would think a lot of people would find it quite tedious having to answer like that Crohnically. Half the time when DH, who also has AS, asks me the only answer is 'nothing'. Any other answer requires analysis I haven't got the mental energy for. You have to try and understand that in order to understand a confusing world you are analysing stuff in a way that is exhausting, both for you and the person you want to understand.

[CinnabarRed]

I think it's a pretty good rule of thumb to take people literally if they say "nothing's wrong".

Because there are really only three possibilities:

1. Nothing's wrong, and pushing them is eventually going to irritate them.

1. There's something but now isn't a good time to talk, for whatever reason, and pushing them is going to immediately irritate them.

1. There's something but the person is stone-walling for some reason, in which case they're an arse and ignoring their antics is the best way to deal with them.

[hedgehogsdontbite]

That's good advice Cinnabar

I think 3 is the most difficult to deal with especially when you are much more vulnerable because reading the signals doesn't come naturally.