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Important feminist battles to fight!

48 replies

FoxgloveFairy · 23/01/2015 09:05

I sometimes think that us women have our priorities wrong. While we fuss about whether people mind public breast feeding or whether there should be women with norks out on page three, women in developing nations are being abducted, mutilated, enslaved, raped, forcibly married, murdered. For example, in Nigeria, Boko Haram abducted 200 or so young women. Killing the rest of their families, at least the children, elderly and infirm.For all the #bringbackour girls, and celebrity sad face photos, are those girls back? No. They've been sold, forcibly converted and married to Boko Haram fighters. Their families will never see them again or know what happened to them. Such family as survive. Ok, battles closer to home are also important and we have more chance to actually help. I get that. Nor am I about to go into battle with terrorists. But where is the longer than five minute outrage? Where are the Moslem women speaking out about this kind of horror? Am I missing it?

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YonicScrewdriver · 23/01/2015 10:34

Hello again, Trix.

"There are more important things in this world than being whistled at in the street. I take it as a compliment."

Excellent for you that you don't mind. Since many women and girls feel threatened by it, why does you thinking it's a compliment outweigh that?

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Seff · 23/01/2015 10:36

Massive x-posting there.

Satire is a joke, but it didn't stop people taking it very seriously, did it? Although I was mainly using the song as an example of women being critical towards other women.

You may take being catcalled as a compliment, other women don't.

Please see my first post on why I believe "boobs in a paper" is linked to other issues women face in the world.

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FoxgloveFairy · 23/01/2015 10:42

Trix, that's my point. Seff, let's work together, I agree. We do all need each other to do as much as we can- even if that is just raise awareness.

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TrixAreForKids · 23/01/2015 10:49

yonic it doesn't.
it's just I feel that that wolf whistle is someone (a man-child most likely) finding you attractive, but too much of a pussy to come up to talk to you.
A guy was shouting HEY SEXY at me and I ignored. thats all you have to do. but when he grabbed my coat yes I did feel scared, but all it takes is to ignore it. or shout "grow up" which I did yesterday while I was in a foul mood!
there are a lot more issues, worse issues, in this world than catcalling - the world don't come with a warning. men and women are gonna stare at each other. it's human instinct to admire something you find aesthetically pleasing. You wouldn't touch a work of art though, so don't touch someone without their consent
simple
otherwise, it's a compliment. You shouldn't feel threatened by something going "hi beautiful" or "giz a smile love" like I do smile at that - it's nice. it's not threatening, or sexist. it's someone admiring you.

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ghostyslovesheep · 23/01/2015 10:50

both Page 3 and 'wolf whistling' (verbal harassment) reduce women to objects - and allow men to 'rate' them and comment on their looks openly and publicly - it's not nothing - it's damaging, intimidating and backwards

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ghostyslovesheep · 23/01/2015 10:52

also ask yourself WHY the HELL thse men feel they have the right to comment on your looks, your sexiness, your desirability or your mood in public - often loudly - why? what entitles them to? do you see gangs of women doing it?

it speaks volumes of mens continued control of public spaces and womens place in them

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CaffeLatteIceCream · 23/01/2015 10:56

The answer to this is depressingly simple.

Women do not speak out about this because the conversation HAS to involve discussions about the root cause....the doctrines of Islam.

Criticising Islam is a difficult thing to do when you have been told that to do so is "racist" and that we're all supposed to respect "faith".

Are Muslim women speaking out? Some...not many. And given the risks to their personal security, we can't be surprised by that. Some of them are only half speaking out, relying on the "This isn't the real Islam, it's been misinterpreted" - which is not going to ever work because it is completely untrue.

We need to stop using the word "extremists", btw, when it comes to Islamic nutters and start using "literalists". They are taking the doctrines literally - and, given the horrific, blood-thirsty, murderous, racist and sexist teachings contained in the "holy books" - this is truly disastrous.

And is it just a few lone loons? Nope. Millions and millions of Muslims worldwide actively support the idea of death to apostates and adulteresses (often raped women). They may not actively pick up a gun or a stone, but they are cheering on those that do.

The overwhelming attitude to Islam on these boards sickens and astounds me in equal measure.

Here we have women getting their knickers in a twist over ASDA adverts, but who are basically shutting down conversation about the biggest threat to women's safety worldwide by screeching "racist" and "bigot" at those who dare to voice their outrage.

The world should be ROARING about this, not sssshing everyone with bonkers and wrong soundbites about how it's nothing to do with religion and Islam is really very peaceful (which it most assuredly is not).

Every human being deserves to be judged individually for their own actions, and not have to bear responsibility for the behaviour of any other person, even those who identify themselves as belonging to the same religion.

But here's the thing - if any individual Muslim does not support the horror that is carried out in the name of their religion then they need to stand the fuck aside and stop distorting the debate by complaining about their hurt feelings.

If you, personally, do not endorse the doctrines of your religion that clearly and unambiguously condone all of this death and destruction...then we are not talking about YOU. Stop making it about you by by taking offence to perfectly understandable objections to teachings that were invented 1600 years ago.

The doctrines of Islam must start to be dismantled brick by sexist, homophobic, racist brick. It must. It must undergo a period of enlightenment exactly as Christianity has done where most Christians can live comfortably with the idea that not all of the Bible (barely any of it, actually) can be taken literally.

Ridicule and debate will all help that process along. Ridicule of IDEAS, by the way, not necessarily people.

What won't help one little bit, is privileged Westerners , clueless about what a literal reading of these doctrines actually say, and keen to display their inclusiveness and non-racistness to online buddies taking offence on behalf of all the nice Muslims.

And to all Mumsnetters who dared to use the word "but" in relation to the CH murders ("Well, of course no one should have been murdered, but.....the cartoons were offensive/racist/whatever bollocks") then shame on you. That kind of ignorant posturing gives these murderers' a licence to do it again. It justifies what they did. That "but" is all the justification they need. So well done you.

Islam - the collective doctrines and teachings of a religion born in the middle ages - is directly and clearly responsible for the suffering of millions upon millions of women and girls today.

You'd think the feminists of MumsNet would be yelling their disapproval every chance they get. But the silence is deafening.

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TrixAreForKids · 23/01/2015 10:57

yes okay but womens mags reduce men to onjects. women will stare at a really good looking man.
remember that video of the woman walking through manhattan? they did the same with a man. twice as many women looked at him, as as many men looked at the woman.
i think it's different in the UK if I'm honest. Those videos are american and half the feminist issues are swimming right over the pond, into a different culture, to us. and we're going mad about something that is very much an american problem.
Look, I'm not disputing the fact that it's immature and idiotic, but it happens. I got my arse slapped in a club, did I feel intimidated? no I laughed, it was my 18th and i found it hilarious and cringeworthy because it had never happened before!
did i feel scared when I was grabbed? yes. do I smile when a bloke says "smile love!" yes I do.

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TrixAreForKids · 23/01/2015 10:58

i agree with equal rights, but mainly for people who actually need it.
i'm not what you'd call a feminist, more egalitarian.
men get harrassed by women.

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FoxgloveFairy · 23/01/2015 10:58

Actually, Ghosty, yes, I have seen groups of young women do just that. Not nearly so commonly, but still.

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ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 23/01/2015 10:59

ghosty I agree. I am not public property nor am I here to provide something entertaining for men to look at. Men don't expect to be commented on or harrassed when out in public so why should women have to tolerate it.

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SacredHeart · 23/01/2015 11:00

trix please refrain from shoulding all over people.

You don't get to tell anyone how they should feel about catcalling - no one does.

The difficulty with the women's isdues in other cultures is that, right or wrong, intervention from the west is seen as ethnocentric and patronising. We can continue to assist with awareness and education but as others have said above that there's not a magic wand for these issues.

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TrixAreForKids · 23/01/2015 11:01

i pressed send too soon - we're already equal. there's people out there who have a lot worse things to deal with than getting wolf whistled.

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WorraLiberty · 23/01/2015 11:02

Some bloke last night on Question Time said a similar thing.

He tried to minimise/close down the page 3 discussion by telling everyone they should be more bothered about FGM.

It made him look quite foolish imo.

People are quite capable of worrying about/discussing more than one issue, without needing to be told there are worse things going on in the world.

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DuelingFanjo · 23/01/2015 11:02

Oh dear.

why is it that so many people think that women/feminists/people can only care about one issue at a time?
It's like they think they know which causes people are fighting for - but how can they know? How can you, OP, know that the person shouting loudly about the right to breastfeed isn't also shouting loudly about the situation in Nigeria?

Honestly, posts like these are so similar to the one mostly by men (Some men) on the 'no more page three' Facebook page - who berate women for not caring enough about other things. Also they are always going on about the Muslims there too - like they have some kind of not so hidden anti-Islam agenda and they think no one is aware of it.

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DuelingFanjo · 23/01/2015 11:04

it's a classic derailment technique from the simple minded IMO. Trix, for example, marching into the debate with statements like "there's people out there who have a lot worse things to deal with than getting wolf whistled".

It's like they can't hear what they are saying because if they really could they surely would be aware of how dumb it sounds?

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ghostyslovesheep · 23/01/2015 11:05

Caffee I think it's simplistic views like yours that cloud the issue - oppressive regimes and barbaric 'justice' should always be opposed and challenged but these are down to the countries that implement them

Lots of countries that are identified as mainly Muslim do NOT practice stoning or ban women from driving or all the other generalisations - and plenty of none Muslim regimes oppress people.

to attack an entire religion is stupid and simplistic - and yes plenty of Muslim women speak out - stop ranting and try listening

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FoxgloveFairy · 23/01/2015 11:05

Ok, a lot of cross posts here, largely by me! Time for bed here in Oz, will be back tomorrow. Be kind to each other- women of the world need it. Goodnight.

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LRDtheFeministDragon · 23/01/2015 11:06

I think there are lots of women talking about these issues already, OP.

If women around you are ignorant of them, educate them. But don't come claiming that everyone else is just as ignorant/apathetic. It's divisive, IMO.

Not even touching the 'I'm alright Jack' catcall argument with a bargepole.

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WorraLiberty · 23/01/2015 11:07

Oh dear god...

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YonicScrewdriver · 23/01/2015 11:17

"twice as many women looked at him, as as many men looked at the woman. "

Did twice as many women (who were stronger than him or in a group that might be intimidating) catcall, whistle and berate him for not replying?

Looking is different to shouting out, Trix. Last post on this point to you.

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FloraFox · 23/01/2015 11:35

OP what do you think the outcome of this would be? Should we cancel all actions that are going on for "unimportant" feminist issues? What then?

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BreakingDad77 · 23/01/2015 11:59

Of course people are going to care about womens plight wether it be here or overseas.

Though perhaps in the west we should be getting our house in order first before we start lecturing the rest of the world. Considering the attitudes to rape, and women's value in the workplace we still have some way to go.

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