To ask what's the beef with benefits?

[mytartanscarf]

Do people think they are too little? That they should be more?

There's always a lot of upset on here about them - about how wrong the government are and how awful life is on benefits. I've never been on benefits so obviously can't judge. But what are the solutions?

I suppose I am asking what should the government do?

[ilovesooty]

26 is that question about the job centre serious? Are you not aware of the sanctioning and conditionality regime?

[ilovesooty]

X post Derek

Don't forget , "tell the job centre you can't make your appointment as you have a job interview" - sanctioned.

[mytartanscarf]

I agree ghosty.

I suppose I am trying to put myself in the position of having the choice between doing my badly paid, crappy hours job and benefits - quite honestly I can see why the latter is tempting.

I agree zero hours needs scrapping and minimum wage rising and workers rights improving. But the two things that happened to spring to my mind when thinking were childcare, housing. I'm not saying there's nothing else I haven't thought of!

[mytartanscarf]

Derek - I think it is one of the things that must demotivate.

Rent is very expensive when it is private. Council properties are few and far between.

As I have said, that was one of the things that came to mind. Somewhere to live where I feel secure is always something I'll be grateful for.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

mytartanscarf you may have been startled by some replies, but that will be because of the likes of DaisyFlowerChain. Most benefits threads these days are started by people who hate the poor.

I don't know how to fix the economy, but it probably means changing a lot of interlocking factors.

There's something very wrong when a full time job doesn't pay enough so you can come completely off of benefits. Effectively the government pays a part of the wage so that the company doesn't have to. Frequently the company then finds a way not to pay taxes.

I think the idea that everyone must work and then pay huge amounts of money to other people to look after children or the elderly could do with a rethink too. Sometimes that is good and sometimes not so good.

[cuddybridge]

If you lose your job you will be horrified at how little in benefits you will receive. If you become very ill you may get just about enough to have a sort of comfortable life with major readjustments. But those who make a life on benefits are by far the most savvy about what can be claimed, and how to maximise what's available. How you feel about benefits tends to depend on where you are looking at it from.

[mytartanscarf]

No I agree. I earn less than minimum wage (travel time isn't paid) and it's very dispiriting to see how LITTLE you earn after working so incredibly HARD!

[dashoflime]

From what I can see, the "beef with benefits" is mostly to do with struggling people believing that their family member or friend or neighbour or whatever, who is on benefits, is getting more money and having a better time than them. Usually, on the basis of a lot of speculation and jealousy and very little solid information.
I work as a welfare rights officer so I know the benefits rates and what is involved in claiming them and I can categorically state that 90% of the stuff that people think they know about other peoples benefits claims is total bollocks.
Having said that, yes the system is imperfect. In my ideal world a government would:

1. Stop fucking about with the regulations, inventing new conditions and continually creating and abolishing benefits. Every govt wants to make their mark and the result is more and more complexity and confusion. No other area of law (with the possible exception of Immigration) changes as rapidly and its no wonder people (including polititions!) don't properly understand the system.
   
2. Increasing minimum wage to a living wage rate would reduce the Tax Credits bill. There is no reason for government to be indirectly subsidising business as they currently do.
   
3. Stop reinflating the housing bubble in the South East. This will bring rents down and cut the Housing Benefit bill. Also encourage local authorities to build council housing, bring back rent caps and consider stimulus to the house building industry more generally.
   
4. Subsidise childcare. This will make work pay and remove the poverty trap for single parents and couples in low paid employment.
   

I would also remove the obvious cruelties and injustices in the system such as sanctions and the bedroom tax. But I agree that in the long term, reducing benefits dependency should be a goal. I just don't think it can be achieved by messing about with the benefits system, as the causes are much wider.

[DaisyFlowerChain]

Luis.

1. Can you not have an opinion then without experiencing the subject? I have one on FGM but not experienced that, same ges for rape etc. My personal details are just that, personal.
   

1. Lifestyle choice. Easy. Some want to live in areas they can't afford, others have children with no intent of supporting them sprouting they can't work as childcare is to expensive, they won't leave their child with strangers etc. a quick google shows child costs before getting pregnant and its not rocket science that if you choose to have children that things may go pear shaped in the future as no relationship is guaranteed.
   

1. Benefits are not that high if single and you suddenly lose your job. They are there as a safety net and cover the bare minimum. They are too high for those that chose not to work as if they were not enough why would so many choose that lifestyle? Those that chose them with children (excluding where too disabled to do any kind of work) do so knowing the outcomes for children are far worse than their peers. If we break the cycle and stop paying people to have children they won't support we improve outcomes, schools would be better and more would go on to become tax payers.

[mytartanscarf]

Thanks dashoflime that's really interesting.

[26Point2Miles]

Er yes sooty it was a serious question! Why would I ask if it wasn't??

Anyway, derek I asked because for some reason I thought you had a younger child and therefore assumed you were on IS. My thinking was on IS as a lone parent with a dc under school age you shouldn't have JC breathing down your neck! But yes, I've been on JSA. For 6 weeks! I hated ever second and v v v luckily got a job which I turn out to love. Wish you well with your job search. I'm a lone parent with 5dc and it's tough!

[ilovesooty]

Daisy you might be comfortable financially. In my eyes you are poor in terms of anything that makes you a worthwhile, compassionate person.

[diaimchlo]

Daisy

They are far too high and the system is broken. It's no longer a welfare state for most claimants but a lifestyle choice.

Thank you for finding the reason that I have 5 chronic health conditions that prevent me from leading a 'normal' independent lifestyle but leading a lifestyle choice of living off benefits.

May I suggest you stop reading the DM and watching channel 4 and 5 then maybe you will understand the hardship that is being suffered in this country.

[ilovesooty]

Apologies 26

[diaimchlo]

Dashoflime for PM

Great post!

[BackOnlyBriefly]

some want to live in areas they can't afford, That will be those people in poor areas that suddenly became expensive. They are then trapped in them. Moving costs money, it means taking kids out of school, leaving all friends and family (some of whom were probably available for child care) and giving up any job they currently have. Oh but you didn't know working people get benefits did you.

Did you really imagine that someone on benefits moved TO an expensive area?

its not rocket science that if you choose to have children that things may go pear shaped in the future as no relationship is guaranteed. Are you saying that no one should have children or only the super rich? If your company closes down tomorrow do you have enough money to last until your children leave home?

They are too high for those that chose not to work as if they were not enough why would so many choose that lifestyle? So your proof that people choose that lifestyle is circular? Your evidence that people choose is the benefit rate and you know the rate is high because people choose it?. Want to try that one again?

If we break the cycle and stop paying people to have children they won't support

Okay try and think about that.

"Mrs Jones. We're cutting out the benefit for your children to break the cycle. Since you won't be able to afford to feed them we're willing to take them into care permanently or have them put down at the vets. Your choice"

[Dawndonnaagain]

Daisy I asked for evidence, you have provided none.
I suggest you start with The Joseph Rowntree Foundation and then perhaps you will be more equipped to enter a discussion you so obviously know nothing about. The myth of generations of people not choosing to work and having children has been debunked so often it's become positively boring.

[DaisyFlowerChain]

Ilovesotty, don't worry about me. You know nothing about me bar anonymous internet posts so save your pity for those that need it.

I have compassion for lots of things but lazy people expecting others to pay for the life they fancy living isn't one them.

We should have a welfare state, I don't think anybody would want to see it gone but it needs to be that and not a free for all that it is at the moment. Perhaps when it reverts to that, hospitals will have more funds and education may improve so that all schools are equal.

[Dawndonnaagain]

Daisy you are spouting nonsense.

[ilovesooty]

Oh I'm not worrying about you. I'll reserve that for people worth my worry. People with poverty of imagination and poverty of empathy don't factor.