to think there's an expectation that all women want the same experience of birth?

[ScarlettOHaraHamilton]

I'm hoping I can explain this properly.

I was chatting to a friend today, who is very pro home birth, about the news the other day recommending more home births. I said I remembered there being a conversation on MN a few months back about the same topic and there was a general opinion that all women wanted to experience the same sort of birth - as in, an intervention free, probably significantly pain relief free, vaginal birth.

I then said that was quite honestly the last thing I wanted to ever experience. I had 2 days of labour before having an emcs and I hated it; I will fight tooth and nail for an elcs next time. I then said that if I was in a position where I knew that an epidural or spinal wouldn't work and so I had a choice between a vaginal birth with only G&A and pethidine, or an elcs under a general anesthetic, I would chose the later (if there ever was a choice).

My friend was incredibly surprised by this. She thought that everyone wanted to 'experience' birth and that everyone hoped for a vaginal birth. Which got me thinking about other threads I've read on MN and it struck me that's probably the general assumption. And that that expectation might drive maternity planning. Which probably isn't an ideal thing - the ideal thing being to support women to try and have the birth they want, whether they is a home birth, epidural, or elcs.

Does anyone agree?

[ChickenMe]

Do you think a lot of research has been done into pain and complications in childbirth? As in, it flummoxes me how one woman can have a reasonable experience and another an horrific experience. Do you get to "assess" the birth afterwards so medical professionals can learn from it?
Also, do animals with similar gestation periods to us go thru long labours, similar pain etc?
I was initially bit disappointed that I may have an ELCS due to large fibroid. Now I'm hoping I do get a section especially as they are muting the idea of "trying it out naturally". Yeah thanks.

[StatisticallyChallenged]

^On what? Tearing? Episiotomies? grin

There is no good part about giving birth, only the baby at the end. The rest just sucks. IMO^

Well indeed! Why do people feel it's ok to judge for making a particular choice about something so incredibly personal? My ideal will be different to the next person's ideal. So fucking what. I believe my ELCS was probably cheaper in the end as I genuinely don't think VB would have worked - it would have been a chain of intervention ending up with one anyway!

My recovery was also very quick, had DD on Friday, out on Sunday and went shopping in Tesco the same day!

[MrsBennington]

I feel like Scarlett - there was absolutely nothing about the thought of a VB that appealed to me. Not afraid of it just not something I ever wanted to do. Had two ELCSs instead so I've never even had a contraction - now that's MY idea of my perfect birth.

[ScarlettOHaraHamilton]

Chicken Tell 'em to whistle!

This is probably badly remembered cod-science, but I think our painful labours are something to do with how recently we've moved to being on two feet and our hips not quite being wide enough. Or is that bollocks?

[rallytog1]

Yanbu. I will never have a vaginal birth (due to injuries in a botched emcs). A tiny bit of me feels sad about that, but I am SO glad that I will never have to feel the evil, god-awful pain of induced labour with a mal-positioned baby ever again.

The thought of a natural intervention-free birth was my dream. Now it's my worst nightmare and I feel grateful that it will never be allowed to happen!

[rallytog1]

But on the flip side, I'm on course glad that many women will be able to have a natural birth where things go smoothly.

[Boomtownsurprise]

First birth? I wanted a pain free birth. Frankly if that was vaginal or not.

I got an horrendous induction experience over 3 days followed by begging for a c sec. Hardly a win to be slashed by a knife after 3 days hell.

That said I did realise some things at the hospital I was at
A) sweeps offered to speed a natural process
B) inductions encouraged which usually lead to a cs
C) women kept in bed not encouraged to move
D) they only did something at the limit of every time frame so effectively unless you or baby were distressed therefore until you were distressed or baby was nothing happened

All so shifts, staffing and holidays (I was due early dec so a natural first birth would likely have resulted in an Xmas delivery) could be planned.

It's money. That's what drives or doesn't midwifery. By controlling who comes in, lessening turn ups money can be saved.

[Topseyt]

I have had three babies. The first two were vaginal births. The third was an emergency caesarean.

The caesarean was far and away the best of them and if I could have my time again I would have all three that way.

My first vaginal birth was horrendous, resulting in an episiotomy, a ventouse delivery and a third degree tear with loads of stitches. It took months to fully heal, which was horrible. The caesarean was a breeze to recover from by comparison.

My second vaginal birth was much better but I still wouldn't choose it.

[MaryWestmacott]

It's an interesting question OP, and I think I've not realiesd before, but yes, I bloody hated the idea of giving birth at all times. I did do the NCT classes and accepted that I should want a natural birth, but quite frankly, the forceps and the epidural were all a little hideous, but it wasn't like I liked the contracting experience before hand (which all went well until it turned out DC1 had gone the wrong way).

I had an ELCS with DC2 (both the back to back and the fact that there were errors in my care that lead to me ending up being rather poorly afterwards), but the sense of relief, not just that I wouldn't have to go through the forceps etc but not have to go through the perfectly normal contractions first was massive! I could cope with the after pain from a Csection (which was no where near as bad as the pain from someone taking a pair of sissors to my fanjo), if I got to avoid going through labour.

Labour is rubbish, it hurts lots. C section was nowhere near as bad.

[PlummyBrummy]

I did the whole drug-free vb thing last time. Certainly won't be doing it again. I felt utterly traumatised and that was on top of my baby being rushed off to NICU for a totally different reason. I think there are as many different preferences for birth as there are women giving birth. I'd really hope that we could all be catered for.

[ScarlettOHaraHamilton]

There is something more manageable about the cs pain, isn't there, Mary? I found it the same. Couple of weeks on ibuprofen and moving a bit more slowly still seems so much more preferable to that oh my god my guts are being ripped out by a burning poker sensation.

[Didactylos]

l am with you op

my main plan for birth was that whether i was assessed as low or high risk, i wanted access to pain relief, an experienced rescuss team for me and separate team for baby plus a level 3 NICU within shouting distance. whether i needed them or not.
I did not want a personal relationship with my caregivers, i wanted to know that whoever walked through the door was trained, competent and could work in a team to help me get the job done
i didn't want anyone to cheer lead me out of pain relief/jolly me along or be a barrier to me accessing pain management if/when i decided i needed it
i wanted an obstetric opinion rapidly if anything started to go wrong and had a strong preference for a CS over instrumental delivery

with all these provisos i felt safe to labour, i couldnt have relaxed at all in a home or mlu setting.
it seemed pretty sensible to me
but apparently these things are not what women want

[stargirl1701]

It's definitely not what I wanted. I wanted a close relationship with my midwife. I wanted to move as instinct told me. I wanted to use visualisations when contracting. I wanted to labour in near darkness. I wanted to deliver in the pool.

The free standing MLU meant that I could do this.

Birth should be woman centred.

[MaryWestmacott]

Dida - interestingly, when I was having nct classes, one of the things they said to discuss as a couple first was what should the dad do if the baby has to be taken to intensive care, stay with this DP or follow the baby. It came out in the group conversations that the woman who'd picked the midwife led unit near us hadn't quite grasped that if something was wrong, the baby would have to be blue-lighted in an ambulance over to the main hospital in our area, and they don't wait for the mum to be stitched up/fit to travel, it's a 20 minute drive, they just go and the mum follows later when she can.

There's a lot to be said for your new baby just being on a different floor in the same building, not in the next town over.

[Didactylos]

exactly stargirl, there is no 'right' way to do it. only whats right for the individual. And Im sure both of us would be pretty unhappy if told our preferences and concerns were not important

[ShadowKat]

I suppose I would guess that most women want a birth experience that's as relaxed as possible, as pain-free as possible, and one that's quickly recovered from.

But different women will have different ideas about how best to achieve this.

Personally, I most definitely did not want a home birth. I wanted to give birth in a hospital where there would be consultants and a neo-natal unit on hand, so that in the event of things going horribly wrong, I would be as close to help as possible.
I wouldn't have felt safe labouring at home with that worry in the back of my mind and would have resisted any suggestions of me having a home birth or a birth in a MLU that wasn't also in a hospital containing a consultant led unit and a neo-natal unit.

[Krytes42]

I wanted a caregiver that I knew and trusted, and the ability to move freely without being tied to anything, so no epidural. For me, a supportive midwife was a good choice.

A coworker was more or less the complete opposite. She didn't want to know any details about labour, she just wanted to show up at the hospital and have whichever doctor was on call make it stop hurting as quickly and as completely as possible.

Neither of us was wrong, and I'm not sure which of us had the more "mainstream" expectations. Of course different women have different wishes and expectations.

[lambsie]

My first birth was a stillbirth so for my 2nd I wanted the birth to be as planned, predictable, quick and as soon (whilst being full term) as possible so I opted for a c section at 37 weeks.

[Artus]

In the county in which I live there are two MLUs. One next door to a consultant led hospital unit and one standalone. The standalone unit is in danger of closure as women are not choosing to use it. Most prefer hospital, and a smaller number the MLU next door to it.

And this despite significant persuasion by midwives to use the local MLU. It will be interesting to see if the recent NICE guidance has any influence on women's choices.

[DilysMoon]

I'm with you, I've had EMCS, VBAC and ELCS.

Never really understood the angst around birth, for me it is a means to an end, a healthy baby hopefully with as little damage to my own body as possible. I don't know if my view is coloured by the fact that I had 3 miscarriages before dc1 and really didn't care how he came in to the world just that he stayed put for the whole pregnancy and was well when he arrived.

With my EMCS I remember the mw laughing/shocked that I looked pleased once the decision had been made for section, my reply was as above, I just wanted him here didn't care how!

[Girlwhowearsglasses]

I've had birth with all the interventions resulting in EMCS and so intervention free VBAC at home.

Home was an amazing experience. It also meant I had the same incredibly experienced Midwife throughout pregnancy and birth where I may not have in hospital. This is one of the things that made it a positive experience. I think you can talk about choices of birth - and I believe we should all have them - but we all want continuity of care, not re re-explain ourselves every time a new person walks through the door, and not to be treated like a child or neglected ( see having waters broken without permission, being woken at 6 am and de-catheterised and told to 'get up' as you had a C section yesterday).

Also Im with you in what women want as in my second birth at the single moment anyone tried an Imtercention I would have pulled the plug and held out for a Section- it was all or nothing either way - no buggering around with ventouse etc

[mythical]

Of course not all women want the same experience of birth, my problem lies with women being belittled for the experience they strive to get, and this goes both ways.

If someone wants to get an elective c-section and has done their research and they're happy with the risks and benefits to them then that is entirely up to them to decide.

Same situation if someone has decided to go for a drug free home-birth. They should get the same treatment.

Not everyone sees birth as a "let's just get this baby out". And that's okay. It's also okay to see it as something to just get it over with.

[StatisticallyChallenged]

That sounds a bit like me Girlwhowearsglasses, my original plan (before SPD knackered my body and left me unable to get a gap bigger than 2" between my knees!) basically said don't bloody come near me with forceps, if it's not working straight to C-section please!

Everyone has their own individual priorities and fears and we need to accept that. I saw a really senior midwife before my CS was decided on who got me to try out various positions, lying on my side with leg raised etc and admitted I would have a really tough time because my mobility was so restricted. Didn't stop them fighting me tooth and nail on getting the CS anyway.

[Poolomoomon]

Agreed.

The problem is, with your first you have absolutely no idea how you'll cope with it or what the pain even feels like. I really wanted it compared to something so I asked my mother, she said that contractions were similar to bad period pains but they're about 10 times worse. To me contractions felt nothing like period pains, period pains are like a dragging horrible annoying dull pain and contractions felt like someone was stabbing me through the abdomen AND back every minute. I had a back to back labour so it was way more intense than regular contraction pain, the contractions didn't really have breaks so to speak just continuous one after the other. It was horrible. I have a pretty high pain threshold, up to this point the worst pain I'd been in was quinsy and THAT was excruciating but even that couldn't be compared to how awful back to back contractions were. After 14 hours rolling around screaming in agony I eventually got an epidural and it was heaven . I don't regret it at all but it's interesting how I still have to justify why I did it nearly five years on. In the back of my mind somewhere I still wonder if I could have fought through it for the next ten hours, realistically no I could not. And in the end I had to have a spinal and they cut right into my arse cheek to deliver him via forceps, shoulder dystocia you see...

I actually asked for an ELCS with DC2 but they refused. The consultant was quite harsh and forceful trying to put me off having one, running through all of the negatives. I'm fairly glad I didn't in the end. The labour itself was a lot less intense, definitely quicker and I didn't require pain relief of any sort. The pushing though... I didn't feel that the first time with the spinal block and I certainly wasn't prepared for that bloody burn! But then part of the placenta retained, I lost 4 pints of blood and needed a transfusion so it all went a bit wrong again. I don't labour very well at all.

Interestingly I feel prouder of myself for the second and third labours because I did it without pain relief. I feel like more of a soldier, braver if you like. It's ridiculous, I know but that's how it makes me feel. Almost fills you with a sense of superiority to be able to say "I delivered a 10 pound odd baby and didn't even need gas and air!" I guess . In the end it doesn't matter how you delivered as long as you both make it out alive and well. The older they get, the more of a distant memory labour becomes. It's in the first throws of babyhood that labour is really a topic of conversation, after that no one cares do they? It's like the whole formula/breastfeeding thing I guess, it seems to matter a lot in the first year and after that it's totally irrelevant.

I think in the UK certainly there's quite a pressure on women to do it all naturally because birth shouldn't be made into a medical event, stiff upper lip, do it how our grandmothers were forced to etc. It's a lot of bullshit, epidurals exist for a reason and they wouldn't give them out if they were dangerous. If it gets too painful, bloody have one! Screw the stiff upper lip.