To be annoyed at what my 3yo just said..'I'm white and you're black''

[squiggler]

My DC has been saying "I'm white and you're black and friend 1 is black and friend 2 is white...'. Obviously I'm not annoyed at DC as he's only 3 but it turns out that this was a conversation that they had had at pre-school with one of the teachers.

AIBU to think that by the time kids are in pre-school they should be able to understand more than just 'black and white' based on what people look like?

I can see that the teacher was probably put on the spot by one of kids and didn't really think about what she was saying, but I would have thought that it could have been handled in less 'black and white' terms, especially as there is quite a mix of kids in the nursery.

Perhaps I should have already discussed this with DC but so far the question of 'race' as such hasn't come up. It's been more a case of 'so and so's mummy/daddy/whoever is from here'...and not in terms of race, just country of origin.

The black/white thing is a personal bugbear of mine because I'm a mix of ethnicities and back when I was a child there was still quite a bit of (what we would now class as) racism about so not sure if I'm just being over sensitive.

[ghostspirit]

where i live its a big mix of everyone. I have never really had a chat with my kids about peoples colour/race. i think its are just accepting. accepting is totally the wrong word! the kids just dont know any different since they been born they have seen all different people what ever their colour.

Anyway i think the kids have it spot of. its adults the mess things up.

i wonder would it also depend on where people live? im in london so big mix of people.

when i lived up north for a short while there was me. and another family the family were mix raced.. we had both moved there from london. it was durham-crook very country to me anyway. I felt like i was an outsider and never settled came back to london after 6 months. The mix race couple got out as fast as they could as well. they had the N word painted on their shed and people called them blacky. and people i did speak to there seemed to find it odd that i mixed with them :/

[Itsfab]

When my son was 4 he saw George Aligiah on the news and commented on him having brown skin. Actually, it has just come to me he said chocolate coloured skin. It was different to him as he hadn't seen many people that weren't white at school and around. He hadn't noticed he lived next to a lady who was black as he saw her as Jenny, not as a colour iyswim.

My younger son goes to a school where there is many ethnicities and he has never described any of the children to me by the colour of their skin.

[riverboat1]

I remember having a conversation with DSS about people being 'black' or 'white' when he was about 5. I pointed out that some people were mixed black AND white, due to having parents of different races. He was having none if it, adamant that it wasn't possible and he had never seen anyone like this. I remember trying to explain about inheriting half your genes from one parent etc etc...still no. I pointed out his cousin was mixed race, he was insistent he was just black even though his mum was white...

Turns out he thought I was saying some people have literally half a white body and a line down the middle with the other half being black. Or that someone could be white with black spots, or black but with a white arm or half a white face...

[Waltonswatcher]

My dd chose the black soft doll from ikea when she was one .She used to love playing with him . Lately he never gets looked at. I asked her why and she said 'Because he looks weird'. I assumed she was referring to his racial difference and felt perturbed. When were in ikea today I picked up the white ikea doll and asked her if she wanted that one instead. My dd looked at it ,pulled a face and said 'That one is weird too'.
Sometimes we over think things!

[Bulbasaur]

Could be worse, at that age I went around pointing at random people announcing which set of genitals they possessed.

"He has a penis so he's a boy!"

My poor mother.

Anyway, I wouldn't worry about it too much. He's just announcing differences because they're different, not because they're bad.

[Oakmaiden]

I think what I thought really sad was when a class of 7 year olds were talking about differences between people, and the teacher asked what was the big difference between the way she looked and they looked, they were really worried about suggesting she had darker skin. The stammered and looked embarrassed. But it is just a fact - she is Kenyan, so yes, she has a darker skin tone.

[TheFriar]

I don't think that the OP is unreasonable either. Why on earth is it ok to say the skin colour us either white or brown??? Why should you make a separation between white as a group and all the others including let's say the Chinese who are certainly not white nor brown??
Having a discussion about the difference in skin colour should be more than white and non white but to show how much difference there are in the world.
And I agree with talk g about where people are coming from but maybe more on a 'this is where their ancestor came from' rather than where the person herself comes from. Eg I know someone who is born in the UK but her maternal grand parents are from Thailand and her paternal grand parents are from Africa. Did he us from the uk but her origins are from Thailand and Africa.

[cheesecakemom]

"want - I've never met anyone whose skin is actually black or white. If small children need to describe themselves or someone else it is generally how they actually look, not a racial category."

This!

Kids normally say brown, tan, pink etc. Your DD's obviously had this conversation with a grown up somewhere.

My kids are also of mixed heritage. At 3, we've never had this conversation and it has never come up. They have never asked! I would prefer to speak to them myself as I would rather they weren't being put into boxes / or doing the same to other people.

[MERLYPUSSEDOFF]

My boys are 'cup of tea' colour. 'Coz mummy drank lots of cups of teas when we were in her belly.'
I think that's quite cute. Even though they are now six and understand they are mixed race they still said today that daddy was easy to spot in the family photo because he was the only dark brown one!

[cheesecakemom]

Interesting! A friend recently moved her DD who is 3 to another day group where she returned saying daddy is black and mummy is white. She's been at my DD's nursery for ages and this never came up and was never an issue!

Kids will normally say brown rather than black. I don't think OP is being unreasonable. I know another 3 yo who also says brown and another black toddler who refers to herself as being orange (she not mixed race but very light skinned).

[FoxgloveFairy]

Here in Australia, the term black seems okay to use if you are black, but white people must not use it. Go figure. Anyway, people who have Aboriginal heritage here are very quick and proud to claim it. They identify with that culture. There is a lot of what I guess you would call positive discrimination towards Aborigines as far as culturally sensitive medical services, access to education and social services goes. I have no problem with that, as until fairly recent years, Aborigines were pretty badly treated. There are huge problems in remote Aboriginal communities still. Drug and alcahol abuse, low school attendance, massively shorter than average life span ( 48 for men I believe!) and unemployment. Land rights has helped some communities, but it is a huge problem to address with no easy answer unfortunately. Services in these areas are sparse and kids don't get sent to what schools and doctors there are. Anyway, seem to have wandered off topic!

[ColgateSmile]

I work with young children and when the issue of skin colour comes up I always describe anyone who is not white as brown, we usually then end up comparing skin tones but I talk about being 'lighter or darker' rather than 'black or white'.

I wouldn't describe a mixed race child as black but I realise that is how the world sees mixed race people (thinking particularly where one parent is black and one is white).

This has recently become an issue in my own family with my youngest son (who has very fair skin) telling me rather frequently that he is white... I tell him he is a lighter shade of brown but he won't have it. I guess it's only when he is much older that he will come to understand how politicized the terms 'white' and 'black' are (and that mixed race people are firmly excluded from 'whiteness'!)

OP have you spoken to the pre-school about the way they handle questions about skin colour? I would expect staff working in the early years to be prepared for those kinds of questions, children just tend to say what they see!

[StillSquirrelling]

My kids don't even know the terms black and white in terms of skin colour. We do seem to live in quite a fairly white populated area so I expect that's probably why. When my daughters were in pre-school there were a set of twins whom I think were mixed-race and I remember my daughter coming home and mentioning that there were twins at nursery who had brown skin.

When they have had to describe themselves (for a school 'all about me' type project) they have described themselves as having 'peach skin'. Not something we've ever said but just what they have observed and decided on for themselves.

[Jennifersrabbit]

I can see the point here. I've just returned from a party where skin hues amongst those present ranged from almost black (birthday girls African family), through the birthday girl (lovely light brown), my own DC who is of mixed heritage and very light olive, some Italian children, two sisters with mixed heritage one of whom is dark Mediterranean complexioned and one not, through to a handful of blond haired moppets (one of whom happens to be a quarter Indian ...)

How do you sort that collection into only two boxes labelled 'black' and 'white', especially when that involves putting siblings either side of the line? I agree with others that for 3 year olds at nursery a conversation about the actual colours of the children's skin would have been much more to the point.

[CromerSutra]

I think this is an overreaction. My DW is black. When she first came to live with myself and Dd, Dd was only just 2. We had all sorts of interesting conversations with her about our different coloured skin, none of it at all unpleasant. She used to ask all kinds of innocent questions of DW some of which my white friends used to be shocked by. We weren't at all, we took them for what they were, completely natural curiosity.

These children are 3. One of them probably said something like "I've got white skin" and the teacher probably said "yes, people have different coloured skin, mine's black" or something similar.

[CleverPlansAndSecretTricks]

I am white and DH is indian. When DS was about 2.5 he said "daddy is brown. I am brown. Mummy is pink and red."

Not particularly flattering! But I agree that a literal description sounds more natural from a very young child. If my DS started describing people us as white and Asian I would be a bit sad that someone had taught him to put people into ethnicity boxes at such a young age.

[squiggler]

I suppose it is really just one of those things that bugs me and needs to be dealt with at home instead of expecting a teacher to deal with it in a certain way (unless it's something out of order). I suppose it's common usage and it's something that's seen as acceptable and therefore DC will come across on a regular basis and/or use himself. I will have a think about how to respond if he keeps saying it, maybe a 'don't be silly, I'm brown' or something.

If someone wants to be defined as 'black' or 'white' and they use it to define themselves, I don't see an issue with it - I suppose the problem was with how it was being explained to little children.

DC is my first child so I'm learning as I go at the moment and I expect there will be other situations like this where I get my knickers in a twist worked up over things that I'll just have to figure out how to deal with

[Hatespiders]

Squiggler, we're in our seventies, and sadly haven't been able to have children, but if we had, they'd have been called 'metisse' (in French) or Afro-Caucasian. But to a toddler, just 'brown' I expect. (They'd have been quite dark brown because my dh is as black as coal!)

In Senegal (in the villages) little children used to run after me shouting in Wolof, "Eh! Toubabe!" ("Oy, Whitey!") It wasn't rude or racist, they were just fascinated by my appearance. I've had the same thing shouted at me in Cote d'Ivoire (in Malinke though), Ghana and Gambia. Children are the same the world over. They just love to notice and comment.

I think it's best to leave explanations about mixed race and different colours of skin until a child is a bit older. Little ones can remark on differences as they notice them. I'm sure nobody minds.

[ghostspirit]

i dont think there is an issue either like someone else said its just say what they see. its only adults that make it an issue.

i would say black,mixed race,white to scribe someone. if i know 2 people called fiona one white and one black then i would say white fiona or black fiona depending on what one im talking about as a description of who im talking about.

[fluffymouse]

Op I see no issue here. Children naturally notice differences in appearance, and black and white are not terms that most people would find offensive.

Saying someone is of afro Caribbean ethnicity is a bit too much of a mouthful for a toddler.

[squiggler]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to the thread, I've had a busy day.

My main point is the fact that as there a lot of people with mixed heritage, the conventional terms 'black' and 'white' don't always apply. I fully understand that toddlers/children can completely innocently refer to people that way in terms of skin colour...although as a few people have pointed out, a lot of 'white' people don't have paper white skin and a lot of 'black' people have brown skin. My DP is 'white' but doesn't care for the term himself as he doesn't have 'white' skin and has a mixed 'white' heritage.

I fully agree that 3 year olds don't need to about all the 'racial issues' that they are likely to come across as adults. I am just slightly irritated that I am described as 'black' and my son described as 'white' when the teacher knows that my son has a mixed heritage. As the issue has obviously been discussed in nursery, I would like to discuss it with DC as I disagree with the definitions that he has been told but i don't want to make a big deal about it or give him a complex as he will come across these things himself in his own time.

Just out of curiosity Hatespiders - how would you describe any children that you and your dh may have (now or in the future)?

Swingball, charlestonchaplin thank you, that exactly my main point.

TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy thank you, that is very good way of explaining the issue.

hollie84 - thank you, that is reassuring to know

NewEraNewMindset - a book that explains heritage in straight forward terms without mentioning political or other 'adult' terms would be great, I'll have to take a look.

In terms of my own 'racial issues' - I don't really have issues with my heritage, I am just concerned about the level of detail that should / should not be discussed with a 3 year old. I am not 'white' or 'black', I am a mix of a few different heritages and have pale brown skin so to call me 'white' or 'black' would simply be incorrect.

I understand that children can be embarrassing and it's not the comments from the children that bother me - I can imagine there will be quite a few embarrassing incidents as DC gets older!

[Hoppinggreen]

Convo I had with my ( black) friend last week.
" where is x (DD) Hopping?"
" over there behind that boy"
' which boy?"
" the one in blue"
" they are all in blue it's a uniform!!"
" errrrrrr"
" you mean the black boy don't you?"
" errrrrrrr"
" that's f ing hilarious Hopping, stop being so daft, I'm black, he's black, you're white. Get over it"

[hollie84]

want - I've never met anyone whose skin is actually black or white. If small children need to describe themselves or someone else it is generally how they actually look, not a racial category.