to feel defeatist about this (school-related)

[agoodinnings]

DD is not in the set she would have hoped for.

The school streams in science based on maths ability.

DD is just above average for her year in maths but is in the top 10% for physics and biology and is quite a bit above average in Chemistry.

The top set is equivalent to about 20% of pupils from what I understand.

All other sets (4 of them) are mixed ability with the exception of a small bottom set.

So am I being unreasonable in thinking that we will just have to suck this up and that the school will not make any special provision for her? Has anyone challenged something like this and actually managed to get a different result?

[Have started a thread in education too asking for advice.]

[agoodinnings]

Thinking about it and having chatted with DD, she is intrinsically motivated to study when it comes to exam time and enjoys doing it for the pleasure it brings her. This sounds healthy to me so I don't think I should get too hung up on how things are at school.

[agoodinnings]

Thanks for the advice. Your point about not letting labels set limits Misknit is what I don't want to happen. I have read Mindset and speak openly to my DC about such things.

DD seems to be open to improving herself but at the same time appears to thrive on the external motivation of an academic peer group at school. She does have an intrinsic motivation for things outside school that she is interested in but in the school environment she is very influenced by her peers. She tells me that she is working at a much greater pace in maths since she has been sitting beside a new girl (from China) who is super speedy at getting through the set exercises in class.

The whole intrinsic motivation thing interests me - if anyone knows of some relevant research I'd be happy to read it. I'll have a look at see what I can find in the meantime.

Thanks again for sharing your stories and ideas with me, it's helpful. biscuits, DH also had to fight to do 3 sciences at his crappy comp, he's a scientist now :)

[biscuitsandbandages]

Please at least try and argue her case (or even better help her do it).

I had to fight and fight to do 3sciences at a level as the physics teacher wasn't keen on taking anyone who wasn't doing maths.

He gave me a big hug when I got a B (it was 16 years ago) and got the university place I wanted. Most importantly he told me he was wrong and girls could do physics :-)

[Misknit]

You're right - she's been labeled and is now in a stuck fixed Mindset. Noblegiraffe's post puts it well. Perhaps her teachers are also blinded by the labels they have applied to 13/14 year olds! Read about Carol Dweck's work. Don't let labels set limits.

[bluesbaby]

So don't totally despair

[bluesbaby]

If she really is good at science, the class will not matter too much as long as she does all the reading, and as long as the teacher supports her in pushing for the top set papers (make sure mock papers are top stream). I wasn't the best at science or maths, but I had a natural aptitude when put to the test, I ended up in middle set maths with an A, and middle set science with an easy AA. My science teacher was good despite the stream. She encouraged me and I enjoyed it for the first time and did well because of that.

[agoodinnings]

noblegiraffe, I see your point about the subjectivity of these grades and the lack of benchmarking. She will speak to her form tutor about what's required and there is a parents evening coming up when we can ask those questions.

[ConkerTime]

A maths tutor worked well for my child, although going through with a competent parent would work too. Progressing in Maths can be tough if you've missed understanding at an earlier stage.

[ConkerTime]

Have you been able to go through test papers with her to see where she dropped marks?

[noblegiraffe]

My first thought is that effort grades are entirely subjective and different teachers give them out in different proportions. Her set 1 peers may have teachers who hands out As like smarties and set 2 have teachers that begrudgingly hand out As only to those who really stand out. Attainment grades probably aren't benchmarked either.

But you should phone the teachers and ask what she needs to do to get the top grade. It's possible she just needs to volunteer answers in class more or something personality rather than ability based.

[agoodinnings]

I thought I would update this thread and ask for a bit more advice.

So, DD has received her first set of effort and attainment grades which are her worst ever. 1s and 2s equate to A*s and As and DD has got no 1s in the subjects that she is in set 2 for despite ending Y8 with 1s across the board (including maths). Her previous academic peers who are in set 1 continue to get 1s in their maths and sciences.

It's almost as if the sets 1s are living up to their potential and DD is living down to hers, how can that be? She understands everything, does the work yet fails to 'achieve' what she feels she is capable of.

I want to write to the head of year and register our concern but I'm not sure what exactly I want to say. Does anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

[agoodinnings]

fingersandthumbs your post is very reassuring, thank you very much for sharing your son's success story. And thanks to the rest of you that have offered advice.

To those of you saying make a fuss, I have written a few emails but with no success.

The experience has been a bit of a life lesson for DD. When I told her that MrX wanted to speak to her to reassure her that she had been placed in the right set she replied "no he doesn't, he just wants to patronise me". That's my girl .

[noblegiraffe]

If she wants to do maths A-level then the higher set in maths doing the two GCSEs would be the best preparation for this, if she could cope. It would be worth mentioning the maths a-level desire if she just missed out.

[lampygirl]

Another supporting the big leap between GCSE and A Level. I left secondary school with AS maths, at grade A, and struggled with the full A Level year ending up with a B (6 years ago so no A*)

The key thing is that she isn't disadvantaged in terms of course offered (can still do 3 sciences, and still the top level exam papers) and that she isn't being held back by the bottom end of the group. If neither of these, I'd probably leave her and see how she gets on, if either are likely then deffo push to be moved.

[Notacs]

Gosh, how I do hate setting.

IME making a fuss will get her moved, so do it.

[GoblinLittleOwl]

Make an appointment to discuss this with the science teacher and ask for reasons for the selection of the top set, but don't hold out hope for having her moved as the sets will have been set in stone, (for now anyway).
Ask what she needs to do to get into the top set; I believe they are based on projected targets from KS2 SATS
Would it help to get external coaching for your daughter in maths, so she could improve her score to match her others, which seem good? Then you have a base to fight from, plus helping her to improve anyway.

[TwoAndTwoEqualsChaos]

• GSCE

[TwoAndTwoEqualsChaos]

who I had he same experience with Science GIVE.

[whois]

Make a fuss make a fuss make a fuss!

I got put in set 3 because I hadn't sat the end of year test and it took mum a whole term to get them to move me to set 2 by which time I had missed loads of work. And this was so blindingly obvious I was in the wrong set!

I then did the rest of the year in set 2 before going up to set 1 where I should have been all along and got As at GCSES and A level in maths.

I was in a mixed science set and it was awful, totally dragged down my grades as time was spent on class management and the work wasn't differentiated. Put me right off comprehensive education. Mixed sets don't work.

[fingersandthumbs]

It sounds like your daughter's school operates similarly to the school my son is at. He has just started year 11 and is in now in top set for all of the subjects he is taking at GCSE.
However, at the start of year 9 and based on his exam results, despite excellent ones for physics, chemistry and biology and maths, his English exam result meant that he was in mixed ability sets.
Like you, I was concerned and spoke to the Head of Middle School.
He had a fantastic year 9 at school, he became more confident because he found the work reasonably easy and because he became more confident he found he was questioning and researching around subjects in his own time.
At the end of year 9 he did well in his exams and he was invited to consider joining top sets in year 10. It was a decision he was involved in as there would be considerable extra work for him. The school were very supportive and as there had been a difference in amounts of work covered offered him extra tuition to help him catch up in maths.
He sat maths GCSE May/June this year, (year 10) so a year earlier than the students in the mixed ability set and got an A* and will sit further maths this year.
I suppose my point is, that being in the mixed ability set rather than being pushed and possibly struggling did my son the world of good.
He is much more confident in his own abilities. His school recognized his needs and supported him to get the best result. I'm sure that your daughter's school has the best intentions and it may be possible to change sets at the start of the GCSE work.

[crazymum53]

At dds school you can still take Triple Science at GCSE provided that you have obtained at least level 6b at the end of Y9.
IMO it is better for a child to be top of a middle ability set than bottom of the top set - particularly true if your child has low self esteem.
The school has rearranged the Science sets for GCSE (Y10) and they don't seem to relate to Maths ability just Science.

PS The 3 tier system for Maths taken by sunshine and shadows no longer exists. At a high achieving school the most difficult Higher paper for grades A*-C is taken by most pupils except the bottom set. My understanding is that the new GCSEs being taught from September 2015 (exams in Summer 2017) will have no tiering at all and all candidates will take the same paper.

[CromerSutra]

If she got 91% in physics surely she ought to be in the top set, it's not as if she did badly at maths either. I'd say something in this situation. She couldn't have been far off the cut off.

[GhoulWithADragonTattoo]

I'm glad you've spoken to the teacher at least. It's a pity that they have calculated it like that and your DD has missed out. I guess she may have genuinely struggled with the maths but it's a shame it's also impacting on her science. At least he knows how you and DD feel so if the new teacher notices she's flying in science she may get moved up since they have capacity.

[TeenAndTween]

Does it matter if she is not in the top set for Science?
Will it stop her doing triple for example?

If not then let it go.

To go on to maths A level she will need an A for GCSE (most other subjects need only a B). Is she really going to be good enough? (In my view she should be able to manage GCSE maths reasonably easily without a tutor).

[agoodinnings]

I spoke to the Head of Middle School who reckons that the maths and science results were taken into account and that she just missed out which I guess is much fairer and I think DD will be a bit happier with that. Cut off for top set 87% and DD 84.5% . The top set is not at maximum capacity though, so maybe there's still some hope?