To think just because you're studying law doesn't mean you want to be a lawyer?

[IAmOlderThanILook]

I've always been interested in doing a law degree and I've decided that I am going to get round to fulfilling that aim next year by studying it through the open university.

However I don't actually want to be a lawyer. I just want to study it because I am genuinely interested in the subject and want to learn more about it.

Whenever people find out that's what I want to do though, people always assume that I want to be a lawyer and the conversation generally leads to (without prompting from me) how long it takes to become a solicitor, the training involved after the degree, how competitive the legal profession is, how snobby it is, etc. I've even seen it on threads here - whenever people mention they or their child wants to/are studying law the general assumption is that they want to work in the legal profession (be careful what university you go to, it's very competitive, etc).

Given that most people with law degrees aren't lawyers then it doesn't really make sense to assume everyone studying law wants to become one. I wonder if people assume that people studying French want to become French...?

broken he's been told this by several people. The thinking behind is that if he doesn't get good enough A2 grades (AAA) to go somewhere 'good' that there's little value doing law. But he could go somewhere 'good' to read Philosophy or History then do the conversion course.
I don't have a clue so would welcome any advice.

Brokenhearted55a, what's your experience of City training contracts?

Your comment upthread about the type of students who can get into the City with law school funding sounds like scaremongering to me. You're correct that these TCs are very competitive but you definitely don't have to be public school and Oxbridge first!

I'm at one of the big firms and plenty of us went to state schools and we went to a mix of universities - the likes of Durham, Bristol, Manchester, UCL, LSE, Edinburgh, York, St Andrews, Birmingham to name a few... not just Oxbridge. We are normal people not some kind of special posh superbrain species!

Most of the people on my law degree didn't go on to be lawyers. It's a good solid essay based degree which stands students in good stead for any job which requires analytical thinking and reasoning.

"Brokenhearted55a"? with the greatest of respect, that is nonsense. I am a partner in a City firm and am involved in recruitment so I know what I am talking about. What is the basis for your assertion?

I agree with broken in that its not "better" to do a non law degree and I also agree that its very competitive and you're often competing with candidates with perfect academics from very good schools and universities but it isn't true that you have to go to public school.

I do think though that those of us who are partners now and have a state school background (myself included) will probably have found it less competitive than it is now with so many people now doing law degrees and having amazing A Level results.

What annoys me is the hundreds of young people who are led to believe they'll get a training contract with less than great academics and a law degree from a local college.

No one for 40 years has told law students or GDL students they will get training contracts. Even in my day when it was very hard and half of those doing the then equivalent of LPC failed it students were never told they would get a career in law. My headmistress told me not to read a law degree as there were too many solicitors (30 years ago). I ignored her. It takes young people about 10 minutes to do a websearch to see what may be required to become a solicitor barrister. No one hides that from them. I prefer the current system where there are no rationing of LPC places as at least that allows a free market. We could instead only offer the number of places we thought law firms would need in terms of trainee solicitors but I think that system which used to operate about 40 years ago was worse and more anti competitive.

As for who recruits what, you certainly need good exam results. We don't wan unintelligent doctors with an IQ of 80 operating on people and ditto with the law equivalent so it's wonderful and good for citizens that it is very hard academically to become a solicitor or barrister. That is very important to maintain. However law firms do not only recruit from oxbridge. My daughter (who in her late 20s has just had a large pay rise - to £104k by the way including bonus and she works very hard) went to Bristol, not Oxbridge. Her sister who is also a solicitor in London went to another similar university (not Oxbridge). They do have just about all As on their CVs in decent subjects. They both got a 2/1 not a first. I agree with the poster above though that if pay matters to you you do need to plan a career and think carefully about where you will go and where you will work, which areas pay better, what grades you will need to earn the higher pay and how to push for and negotiate higher pay.

However the poster above saying some vetting is done is obviously correct. HR will sift out people whose CVs are not good enough and no one expects otherwise.

Anyway the poster wants to do law from interest. I adored my law degree and I recommend it. 30 years in I hope I have another 30 years practising it. It is never dull and is utterly fascinating and a great way to make a living.

My understanding is that around 50% of those who study law do not go into the profession. It tends to start out as an area students are really interested in whereas the truth is that it is a dry, academic subject with areas such as EU and trusts and equities which are incredibly dull.

The fact is that it is very, very competitive and some do not find themselves driven enough or interested enough upon graduation. Then there is the continuing financial drain, without a student loan. The main attraction for many is that it is a highly regarded degree along with engineering and medicine and it does open doors employment wise.

My DD wanted to go into the Police with her law degree (as quite a few do) but jobs there are also thin on the ground, the same with the Probation Service. She has gone into a multi national company as a business analyst and is enjoying this. She would not have got this opportunity without her degree.

So, YANBU to want to do this at all. My DH is in his fifties and is part way through his engineering degree so it really is a matter of personal choice and what you want to achieve regardless of age or background. Good luck.

I have a law degree, but I never wanted to be a lawyer. Actually, I have a masters in something completely different and thats what I do for a job, nothing to do with law at all!!!
When I started my law degree, I wanted to be a coroner. It didnt work out for me, but I am fascinated by the law, and loved studying it. Because I didnt need any requisite subjects, I could study exactly what I wanted. I loved it.
I kinda treated it like it was a degree subject, like history or philosophy. I dont think everyone who studied philosophy is a philosopher or in that field.
Its really difficult and takes up a lot of time, but it is fascinating. European law history is really interesting I find, do what you love because thats where you tend to excell.

I'm certainly not denying that all law firms are selective, although brokenhearted's own post would suggest that it's not only the ones who pay for vocational training who are picky. However as other posters above have confirmed it is categorically not true that you have to have gone to a public school and or Oxbridge, or to have got a first, in order to have the 1 or two years of vocational training paid for by the firm.

To be clear, we take a mix of law and non law students. It is not "better" to have done a subject other than law, but neither does it put you at a disadvantage where training contract applications are concerned. If the non law subject has relevance to a type of law or a client sector then you might be better off doing that. For example if you want to be, say, an IP lawyer, then a first degree in a science might give you an advantage if applying to specialist IP firms. (In fact they often take people with PhDs).

The non law students apply before they have their final results just like the law students do. It's just that the non law students start work a year later than the law students who applied at the same time. Offers are usually conditional upon getting a 2:1.

Actually we are also seeing more and more students who are doing joint honours with English law and another subject and spreading their degree over 4 years.

However I have hijacked the OP's thread, simply because I couldn't let brokenhearteds comment slide.

OP, of course it's fine to study law and not want to be a lawyer. It is an academic subject in its own right - who do you think taught us at University? Not practising barristers and solicitors but men and women who had devoted themselves to the academic study of law as a career.

One of my university contemporaries never practised a day in her life and instead became a successful journalist. Others are civil servants and HR professionals, supermarket area managers, run their own businesses - law impinges on every part of life.

However I suppose my question to you would be, why are you studying anything at all - is it for a career or just purely for interest? If you are doing your OU degree to help you get a better job, you might find that something else is better than pure law. Some courses do still have a law element in terms of the law applying to that particular area eg law for social workers, or journalists.

Anyway best of luck and enjoy your studies.

Brokenhearted55a, your follow up post sounded a lot more reasonable! Of course it is unrealistic for students with dodgy degrees from their local college to be assured they can easily make it as a solicitor. They will struggle to get training contracts. Impressive academics are definitely necessary, but that doesn't mean only Oxbridge will do and I really don't think firms will care what secondary school someone went to as long as they have got their straight As at A level.

Law has historically been a vocational degree. Go even further back, and universities didn't award law degrees - it was a trade learnt like plumbing or cobbling.

These days it's not like studying, say, plumbing, where it's inconceivable that you would be doing it for intellectual interest. It's probably more like engineering - you get people who do engineering and end up working in banking, etc. But it's pretty natural to assume that an engineering student wants to be an engineer.

"brokenhearted55a Mon 28-Jul-14 17:24:10

unless you're from a top public school and have a double first from Oxbridge you wont get a corporate firm training contract and funding."

For a pupillage at a top commercial set, maybe so. But city firms look for something rounded, who is clever, but is also going to be really good in front of clients, and can win business. Not that that's less important at the bar, but city firms do place less emphasis on grades.

My SIL did an LLB from a traditional red bricj university & is now a senior social worker. She found her degree very useful in her profession and believes it has opened up a few doors for her.

Doing a law degree teaches you very good transferable skills such as written, oral and verbal reasoning presentation. Also research skills, summarising theories and information into a coherant argument are skills which would be very useful in any
profession.

I think with education becoming very results orientated from an early age, people are losing the interest to study for the love of learning.

YANBU

I think many people don't realise that you have to go on to do the LPC afterwards

I know someone who got a law degree (2.1) and became an aerobics instructor.

DisgraceToTheYChromosome why can't you do ILEX? Do they not accept people with 2:2s?

Law isn't a vocational course at all. You can't compare it to medicine as at the end of a medicine degree you will be a qualified doctor, and the course incorporates placements. Law is solely academic and you are not a qualified lawyer at the end of it. You can do mock trials, pro bono stuff etc. but that isn't part of the course, it's something you have to do off your own back. I enjoyed some parts of the degree and absolutely hated others, particularly the modules you have to do if you want to go on to practice law. Any time anyone mentions land law or equity and trusts I shudder at the memory of it.

My best friend from uni, 6 years on from graduating with a good degree from a redbrick, still hasn't got a training contract. She's been working as a paralegal since she graduated, and I see so many adverts now that require paralegals to have the LPC. I understand that some firms use it as a way to test candidates before taking them on for a training contract but some people like my friend seem to be stuck as paralegals forever, in a ton of debt from doing the LPC, doing some of the same work as a qualified solicitor but getting paid a lot less as there aren't enough training contracts. It's a real shame.

Of the law graduates I know who don't work in law, they're working in finance, recruitment consultancy, teaching, the civil service, social work, and IT. One I know who has got an LLM as well is now a fashion stylist and another is a lap dancer.

I'm reading this thread with a heavy heart.
DS is quite bright but not exceptional. He's not at a major public school but our local comp and I doubt he'll get AAA.
Even if he gets on a law degree course, the chance of getting a training contract look very slim.

Rhubarb being a lawyer is not all it's cracked up to be; it can be horrendously stressful, relentless and admin-heavy. Your DS probably has a world of much more enjoyable and more rewarding (both financially and personally) careers out there ahead of him? none of which require him to record his time in 6 minute units all day every day.

When I was at school so many people did law because they saw it as one of those prestigious, good jobs. Obviously it is, but I don't think they really did the research and made sure it's what they really wanted to do. I know about 8 people with law degrees. One is now a carer, one is admin, one is a holiday rep...

I would agree with Jessie Rhubarb. Many lawyers hate their jobs with a passion. It really isn't the glamorous job people think it is and many roles, particularly in the regions are not nearly as highly paid as people would think and are ten times more stressful than people think.

jessie and atticus, I hear you, we have several friends who hate their jobs & have tried to dissuade DS. Trouble is 17 year olds cannot be told. He'll have to learn the hard way.

Its not all bad. I love my job. I would encourage him to get some decent work experience though. If his academics aren't perfect he'll need to be able to add something else to stand out from the crowd an so he should also spend some time thinking about what that might be.