To wonder why the caste system is tolerated in this day and age?

[whoyouknow]

Was reading the news story about girls who were raped and murdered in India and it said they were targeted because of their low caste status. I know that people are capable of doing awful things to others who they perceive to be different, either due to race, religion or gender, but the caste system itself seems odd as all other religions at least pay lip service to the idea that we are all born equal.

[Lekhika]

Just a couple more comments: "Backward caste" sounds pejorative but is actually used to identify people who are eligible for affirmative action (reservations in educational institutions, jobs etc.) No such facilities for those of us who are tagged WOGS.

RE The God of All Things: it is quite good except for the rather unrealistic portrayal of the mother. She starts off being someone who marries some one from a totally different language and cultural background and ends up as a victim! Arundhati says she modelled her on her own mother, but investigation by Indian feminists revealed that Roy's mother ended up as a high school principal which is a more likely end for an educated middle-class woman. The end would have been more believable if she had come from a village.

Our guess is that Roy provided this improbable end to pander to Western stereotypes...most of you guys know little and are not interested in doing any in-depth research. If you did you would know that caste started off as being a system of functional categories just like guilds in Europe. Over time it morphed into the rigid and repressive system it now is. In the modern context caste distinctions have become a base for getting jobs as the lady above points out. It has also become a ready-made vote bank in the political arena.

For reading: suggest you read Gita Mehta's Karma Cola: a hilarious account of the selling of the mystical East, or how we view all the New Agers picking up bits of culture where they understand neither the content or the context.

Finally happy to take comments and critiques...but please do make an effort to find out a bit more about other countries and cultures before making these comments.

[Lekhika]

Rubbish. Both Christianity and Islam promise that on Judgement Day all non-believers will be destroyed. Why do they have missionaries and mad men imposing their views on others either through force or bribery?

[Lekhika]

There are plenty of white people who do not support marriage to people of a different colour and religion. Can you name any prominent white leader who has a partner from a different religion like Mrs Gandhi and various other leading Indian women did.

[Lekhika]

I don't support the case system but I think Westerners are very hypocritical as they completely deny the inequities imposed by skin colour and religion. I speak from personal experience of being of Indian origin, married to a white guy from a Catholic background and living in Australia for over 25 years.

Have you ever heard of Hindus invading other countries and destroying their religions and cultures by imposing the caste system the way that so-called egalitarian religions, particularly Islam and Christianity have done and continue to do so?

I find in Australia people from minority religions are expected to contribute to Christian festivities but receive little in return, in India we had holidays for all the religions and there was a lot of reciprocity. The Indian parliament also has members from most of the religions and language groups- can you point to any Western system which has the same?

[sallievp]

From my experience here, everything you say about India, the opposite is also true.

Although arranged married to someone from your own caste / community is the norm here, more and more young people are choosing to have ''love marriages'' and inter caste marriage (like my PIL) and inter religion marriage (Like me and my DH) is becoming more common.

For College / Uni / Government jobs, there is a number of positions set aside for people from ''scheduled castes'' (formerly dalits / untouchables) as historically they are the most deprived.

There is a big business going on here with people selling fake ''scheduled caste certificates'' so people from other castes can get into a job / uni under the SC quota!

My own FIL is from a ''most backward caste'' and is a hugely successful and wealthy businessman.

[sallievp]

I am British and live in India and after marrying my Indian husband I am now classed as ''most backward caste''!!

[howrudeforme]

White tiger - brilliant

[Laquitar]

Oh yes. The God of small things was in my list ages ago but for some reason i then forgotten about it.
Thank you Maid!

[MaidOfStars]

Another fiction book that deals with the caste system: The God Of Small Things (which just so happens to be my favourite book ever!). And perhaps a lighter read: The Marriage Bureau For Rich People.

[DogCalledRudis]

Not being a bigot, but there you have a very backward country. In Europe and America a hundred years ago things were not great either for women and if you're poor.

[Laquitar]

Hi written
thank you for the books. I will have a look as i still have birthday vouchers from last month!
Thanks!

[QueenofallIsee]

I would like to understand more about it. A friend of a friend fought tooth and nail to marry her higher caste husband 3 yrs ago. Now they have a DD, I was astounded to hear her state firmly that her DD will not be allowed to 'marry down'! I am not sure it is religious exactly, at least that is not how it has come across to me. I guess the gap between rich and poor is so much wider in developing countries that it is not all that surprising that they retain attitudes that we have largely done away with here as changes have been made.

[writtenguarantee]

I dont know much about it and i would like to. Have you or any poster read any books about it that would recommend?

fiction or non?

"white tiger" (booker prize winner) and "a fine balance" are two good ones I have read. both fiction.

[Aspiringhuman]

I suppose in many ways it's the same principle as people in this country who've had racism or bigotry drummed into them from an early age. It's all they've known and it's reinforced by the wider community. I'd imagine it's particularly in the interests of the higher castes to keep the status quo. After all it gives them someone to look down on and feel better about themselves. Wanting to look down on others is a universal trait IME.

I worked with a guy who was modern I every other way, he'd been born and raised here by Indian parents. He wouldn't have anything to do with an colleague of ours who was also of Indian extraction. he could avoid it. She'd done nothing wrong, he said she was too low a caste. It's what his parents had taught him but his behaviour was very unpopular with everyone. The unpopularity of his views didn't seem to have much impact.

[mindthegap79]

A very good 30 year old friend of mine, who has always lived in the UK, has been forbidden from marrying the love of her life because he is of a slightly lower caste. She is sad about this but accepts her parents' decision.

Wtaf.

[mimishimmi]

Officially it's not legal but the state in which that happened is renowned for being pretty backward even within India as well. Unofficially, it's still pretty much prevalent wrt marriage for example if you look at the matrimonial ads in Indian newspapers. It isn't just about 'high' and 'low' - generally people prefer to marry within their own community whatever it's perceived status is. They will have their own cuisines, customs, style of dressing, means of supporting each other economically etc. The status is not necessarily related to wealth - you can have very wealthy communities whose caste status is generally considered a bit on the low side and plenty of poor high-castes (eg Brahmin priests).

To be honest, even English speaking countries pretty much have an unspoken caste system as do most countries.

[Nomama]

Well, it is if you are in one of the four varnas... but be an untouchable and
you might live a different reality.

As for some of the others (Dalits, I think) we buggered that up - the Colonial we, that is.

It really isn't just a matter of class. It is a mater of blood, internal ethnic differentiation, hatred and apartheid.

If the far flung rural people and the inner city pavement dwellers were allowed access to education, sanitation and the jobs that the great financial growth of the country has caused, then the whole issue of caste would become less important.

However it is currently being strengthened by a financial inequity.

[morethanpotatoprints]

I suggest you look up caste system. It is a class just the same as wc, mc, uc.
Some may link this with a particular religion but many in a caste system don't follow a particular religion.

[Nanny0gg]

I didn't realise that one of the contributing factors to this kind of awful situation is the lack of sanitation.

Because people have to go some distance from their homes to 'go to the loo' (in cities as well as in rural areas) it leaves them vulnerable to this kind of hideous attack.

So if perhaps less money went on joining the Space Race and more on providing clean water and sanitation these women would be safer.

[sonlypuppyfat]

My DH used to go to a gym in a city close to us, he would be working out and some Indian men would be waiting to come in. My DH asked another Indian what the problem was he was told they were a different caste.

[AMumInScotland]

Because your (and my) idea of what is tolerable in 'this day and age' is a culturally-determined one. If we had grown up in another culture, it wouldn't be automatically obvious that we are born equal - it would be perfectly obvious that we are not.

We might, maybe, have an idea that things shouldn't be like that, but that would be a complicated idea we had grown to understand. Not something we'd absorbed from all sides since we were tiny.

[Nomama]

As TucsonGirl said... that and, attaching our own progress and morals to India and other emergent countries is unreasonable. They don't have our history and have a different path to take, which won't be to our timescale.

It is getting better. We should be supporting the changes not handwringing over the status quo.

[TucsonGirl]

India isn't in the same "this day and age" as we are in the west. I think it's progressing a lot. But you'll still get occasional incidents like this. The fact that there is such a big furore about it IS progress, little consolation that may be to the victims.

[whoyouknow]

No I haven't read any books Laquitar, might be interesting to do so but I imagine it was originally started by the rich/powerful to keep people 'in their place'. That's interesting Andrewofgg, I had no idea.

[MyrtleDove]

Discriminating against people due to caste is actually now illegal in India. Unfortunately it hasn't stopped it from happening. The problem is that there are still so many people in very rural areas (particularly mountainous areas bordering the Himalayas) and who are illiterate that the government can't reach everyone.