To think this is too much to expect from parents?

[Octopirate]

There have been a few discussions on my facebook regarding the child who was lead away by the old man in Derby. As a side issue, a few of my friends were saying things like "if I had children I would never allow them to let go of my hand" and "I would never take my eyes off my child, not for a second". My DS is not mobile yet and I don't have any experience with older children, however AIBU to think that this is just not possible? Surely there are going to be times where your child suddenly lets go of your hand or you have to take your eyes off your child? Obviously parents who show a blatant disregard for thier children's whereabouts is a different matter!

[Martorana]

Frankly I don't care whether you use reins or not- so long as you don't spell it "reigns"!!!!!!!

[TheRealAmandaClarke]

I used reins with ds until he was capable of walking beside me reliably.
There are many dangers as Quiz points out.
Btw I am scared of the abduction risk, (in addition to the other risks). I know it's rare but its not a risk worth taking if I can help it.
I think sometimes people are unaware of how quickly a snatching can occur. Or running into a road/ river/ down steps etc. even if you're a vigilant person.
There's so much we need to teach our children and I think keeping safe work in schools should be prioritised.
And whilst id prefer to not let go hold of a toddler, for many reasons, I think the abduction risk is even higher with older children. So reins won't help me when they're older.

Ppl can be so quick to tut and judge, when usually we're just trying to do the best for our dcs.

[QuizzicalCat]

I can you quoted me as always having my daughter attached to me, but you merrily neglected to acknowledge that I don't in the park, or walking the fields with the dog.

The op asked If it was possible to keep hold of a child and I said it was. My post was solely in response to that question, not the subsequent posts because they hadn't been written then ffs.

I don't keep my dd on a wrist strap because I'm scared about paedophiles, I keep her on it because she's a bolter. If we are anywhere near a road, or somewhere crowded she legs it, and I physically cannot run after her.

She managed to vanish during tidy up time at playgroup when I was stood next to her - that was a safe environment, she free plays, she legged it.

She is hugely independent, we go to playgroup, the park, soft play, on welly walks in the woods, we bimble around fields where she isn't on a strap and can go off and play. She goes to nursery while I work. I can assure you that I am not in any way neurotic or a helicopter parent, and as she gets older and learns not to bolt then I'll stop using it. But she's only 2.5! I try to foster her independence to the point that I deliberately chose a Montessori nursery. But out in the street? In areas where I could lose sight of her? Yes she is always attached to me in those situations. And there have been many occasions where it's been like that all day - such as the Yorkshire Show or events like that which we go to a lot, and that is how I know that it is perfectly possible.

So judge all you will - her wrist strap keeps her safe from cars and getting lost. That is what matters to me, not the scathing tones and snotty comments of someone online.

I know more than most about paedophiles - I work with them.

[Aeroflotgirl]

My 2 year old can be a runner and can suddenly gave a tantrum, ridged legs and body, much easier to scoop him up and put him in the buggy than try to carry 35lb of dead weight

[Aeroflotgirl]

When they are older their understanding is better, I buggy my 2 year old when were in the shopping centre and I walk with my 7 year old. I never will forget James Bulger, better be safe! In a park,or walking in non busy areas is different than a busy shopping centre or street.

[andsmile]

Of ffs when will everyone realise that our children are all individuals. So simply, what works or is required for one will not for another.

It is the ability of a good parent to make appropriate choices for their child.

My ds never needed reigns, dd does. One eats oranges the other doesn't. Ffs

[ifyourehoppyandyouknowit]

But the police are satisfied that no one did try and abduct her child.

I have noticed that the anti reign brigade seem to be the ones blessed with quite compliant children. There are few things more annoying than a toddler holding your hand and then doing that lose-all-tension-from-their-body-and-collapse-like-a-sack-of-spuds thing. Then you're the mum dragging their child by the arm. Joy.

[IFoughtTheLaw]

It's classic victim blaming to blame the mother if someone tries to abduct her child.

[KleineDracheKokosnuss]

I use reins for DD and in any potentially dangerous situation I shall continue to do so. I don't want her in the pushchair all the time and she point blank refuses to hold hands, not to mention the damage it does to my already buggered up back as she's tiny.

As for the link - I agree that teaching about tricky people is probably better than teaching about strangers. The author does also I think state the that red flags are possible red flags, not definitive. There's never going to be a definitive way to identify a child molester, but keeping the flags in mind will no doubt help.

[thecatfromjapan]

It's hard, isn't it? I don't have the answers. But I just want to send all of you/us, who are doing our best, a bit of love and support.

I think we should all consciously try to give as much time to congratulating ourselves- and other parents - as we spend feeling anxious and berating orselves(and maybe others).

[RandomMess]

Well it's written by an American, so far from perfect

[Scrounger]

Matorana from a rational viewpoint I agree with you. From an emotional point of view I would love to be able to use my 'instinct' and protect my children from harm, it is more comforting to think that I can control it. However thinking logically I know that it isn't going to work and I need to teach them how to protect themselves, for them to be able to decide what they do or do not want to do and to be able to do that. I watched the programme by Kirsty Wark this week and it seems much harder to be a teenager these days than when I was younger.

[andsmile]

Oh the irony...I was just reading and pondering this thread as my DD(2) is still learnign to hld my hand and likes to run and explore...so I keep her in her buggy onthe busy school run including a very busy road.

So whilst reading and not watching she has just pained herself a poster paint tattoo sleeve with matching face markings!

[thecatfromjapan]

I would also say that, in a culture which condones an appropriative sexualisation of young women for commercial purpose and has not yet sent a clear message to its subjects as yo the wrongness of the abuse of all vulnerable groups by those with more power, you interpretation of "weird" as being synonymous with all those who seek to exercise abusive and illegitimate control over a person or persons, is very sophisticated.
Many people have trouble distinguishing between legitimate and illegitimate control. Hence, for example, instances when people just cannot tell if they are being bullied at work,
Add to this the fact that some power inequalities are gendered and thus "ividibilised" or even necessary -such as those between parent and child - and things become tricky.
Needless to say, it is often in the tricky areas that abuse flourishes.
An unexplored use of the word " weird" just does not cut the mustard.

[Martorana]

I hate this "gut instinct" thing. It really is bullshit.

It's either confirmation bias or post hoc rationalization.

There is no way you can tell by looking, or listening to your instincts or anything whether somebody is a threat to children. The only thing to do is to look after them when they are little- and teaching to be strong and confident when they are older.
And even to suggest that because somebody is a little outside the mainstream they are a potential paedophile, is dangerous and offensive nonsense.

[Pagwatch]

Ok.

But my point was simply that for a huge swathe of people weird will include people who simply have communication disorders or problems with social situations.
And most people already give them a wide steer anyway.

I'm not sure why you are disagreeing with me really.
Of course it's just a list.
But telling people to watch out for the smooth and plausible people is news. Telling people to further isolate the awkward and uncomfortable is just adding to societies inclinations.

[thecatfromjapan]

I think Pag was objecting to the fact that there is generally, and in that article, a very unreflective use of the term "weird". Without differentiation, the term "weird" all too easily includes asd-type behaviours.
I took Pag to be arguing that the work of differentiation should be performed at the point of communication, thst is, within an article purporting to be disseminating information. Rather than leaving that work to be done by a reader who may not have the education or life experience to supply a more nuanced and holidtic interpretation to the word "weird".

[RandomMess]

My point is that you are assuming that "weird" in this incidence refers to people outside mainstream. I took it mean people that you make you feel uncomfortable and you really don't know why, there is something "weird" about them that you can't work out.

There are people I find "weird" i.e. outside mainstream, but I know it's because they either have poor social skillls or perhaps have ASD. That is a very different "weird" to people I have found out at a later date that are actually predatory towards women. Their weirdness was actually probably more of a combination of smarminess and mildly inappropriate conversation steeering.

IMHO The list is just that, a list of indicators to make you think and listen to your gut instinct.

[Pagwatch]

I don't really understand your point Random tbh.
I have a son with ASD and whilst I think he is adorable he does do things which sets the worlds weird-o- meter a twitch.

I'm saying that demonising people just because they are outside mainstream is counter productive.

[TheFairyCaravan]

I used reins or a wrist strap when mine were little. It was the only way I could keep hold of them when I was using my crutches. I couldn't have bolted after them if they had run off, so I had no choice.

Why wouldn't I keep two of the most precious people in the world to me as safe as I possibly could?

[RandomMess]

Pagwatch, I appreciate your point of view but as someone who has AS folk within the family I don't find them weird!!! I have certainly me some weird people that wasn't do to with their social abilities but just somthing that didn't sit right. One of them turned out to be a wife beater and best of all likes to oggle at breastfeeding oh and he thought it was appropriate to make his dc share a bedroom with him and his new partner one his contact weekends - aged 13, 11, 9 when the older 2 really really didn't want to.

[Nennypops]

It happened to DH when he took DD2 and DS3 months to a garden centre. He got DD out of the car and told her to wait while he got DS out. DD was a good little girl and not prone to wandering off. When he turned round, however, she had disappeared. After a few horrible minutes he heard a tannoy calling for the parents of a lost little girl and was massively relieved to find her sitting happily with the security people. It turned out that she had followed another family with a number of children into the garden centre and they alerted the staff when they realised they had one child too many.

[aprilanne]

i will tell you something that happened to me in less than a minute .i was in a big department store in stirling .i looked at some bras and let my three year olds hand go to check some .i turned round and he was gone .after searching i went straight to the till to report him missing .and to be honest they were brilliant .within two minutes the doors to outside and mall were shut .police called .and after we racked all the clothes racks and everywhere .he was under a rack of silk petticoats .when dragged from there he said they feel nice ..the point is it can happen in seconds .so unless she goes everywhere with another adult holding there hands constantly is a bit tricky.

[GreenEyedGoblin]

I have 'lost' ds2 too, on a crowded beach last summer when he was 3. I was trying to find a spot with ds2 and dbil, dh had gone back to the car with ds1 to get something.

I said to dbil 'keep your eye on ds1 a sec, i've just got to find the suncream' and started rummaging in my bag. Dbil heared 'i've got my eye on ds2 a sec, can you find the suncream?' and started looking in dh's bag which he had.

20 seconds later I look up, ds2 is nowhere to be seen, there are people everywhere and the sea is only a couple of minutes walk away. We lost him for about 10 minutes and it was the most horrendous, awful experience. I was shouting his name like a banshee and drawing peoples eyes, dh came back and was shouting at me and dbil about how we could be so stupid (out of panic...he did apologise afterwards). A very nice lady tried to calm me down and sent her dh off to find the coastguard to help with the search.

Eventually we came across him playing in a rockpool with a load of other children, completely relaxed and unaware.

With the best intentions though it could happen to anyone. Anyone who doesn't admit this is naiive or has a serious misguided superiority complex.