To think education is a privilege and removing a child from that without damn good reason is shocking?

[MBT1987]

So, in the latest episode of "Why am I being fined for breaking the law?" AKA "Yet Another Unauthorised Absence", we've had:

"I'm going to tell my kids to lie"
"I'd vote Labour if they abolished compulsory education" (Fun fact - the Education Act 2006 was passed under Labour)
"My children with both parents are disadvantaged as opposed to single-parent families!"
"What are they really going to do if I break the law and don't accept the fine?" (Hint - prosecute)
"My school are lovely, so they won't mind" (Then ask in advance?)

I could go on.

There are some absolute howlers coming from this place, and it's sickening. Parents are encouraging kids to play truant and lie about it.

I don't care if I become Social Pariah of the Week as a result of this. I'll just have to be lonely on my little patch of moral high ground. Anyone is welcome to join me.

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

I didnt go abroad til 18. I didn't take term time holidays. I stayed with my cousins in the summer.

I didn't make fun of people not being able to swim ffs. That is totally irrelevant. We all lerned in the local pool eventually.

[brokenpurpleheart]

I don't think anyone is questioning that a holiday can be an enrichment. The issue is when the holiday is taken. As a secondary teacher I see the damage done when pupils take time out in years 10 and 11. Two weeks can mean a lot of stuff missed. That is essential to GCSEs.

I stand by what I said earlier - a law is a law. Teaching children to break a law, lie about it or be flippant about it is one the reasons there is a lack of respect in children, that causes many of the problems in school today. Parents break the law, kids break the rules - because we can and schools/teachers/governments are all wrong. You want better education? Then teach your kids to follow rules by setting a good example.

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

And yes I know it's 'learned'.

[brokenpurpleheart]

freya I have exactly the same with a year 11 who missed the Shakespeare/poetry assignment. Three weeks off so 15 hours of teaching to make up for just one subject ...

[Nataleejah]

It amazes me how many people happily chant "rules are rules", "authority is holy" when being stripped of their basic freedoms and rights.

[ShadowOfTheDay]

My parents took me out of school for dull as dishwater "educational" trips - one particularly bad one was to an archaeological dig in Greece - wooooo - but LOTS of sunshine, so I should have loved it of course.....

I missed out on learning long division properly.... I hated not learning with the rest of the class from the teachers, but having to do catch up in break times for over a week...

my parents knew what was best for me - strange how they never asked me if I minded playing catch up at school... and how it was always presented as an educational adventure... woooo - "Let's go explore the wonders of Ancient Greece" not "Your uncle is working on a dig and can put us up for a week, you won't mind sitting in a dusty shed in Greece for 4 days in 40 deg heat trying to see if bits of pot fit together..."

but I was a strange child apparently - I actually WANTED to go to school...

[Quinteszilla]

We have been on one foreign holiday the last 8 years, which did not involve stay with overseas family.

We usually go to my dads for Christmas. School break off so close to Christmas that I have to take ds2 out a few days early. I have just a few days to "make" Christmas at my dads house, and buy all the groceries needed for the entire Christmas season, as shops close in the morning on the 24th, and stay closed until the 27th. Then they are open with limited hours until the 31st, and closed until 3rd January.

The alternative is my dad sitting home alone for Christmas, with his usual meals on wheels and no visitors.

Equally Easter, shops in Norway are closed on the day before Good Friday, so Wednesday is the last day to buy food, and the shops stay closed until the following Tuesday. Last year we traveled up on the Wednesday, thinking we had plenty of time as our flight was due to arrive 2 pm. Hey ho. The flight was redirected to a small airport more than 2 hours out of town. They had to source and send coaches from the town and out, so we did not get to the coach station in town until midnight. My dads home nurses cannot go shopping for him, they are not allowed to handle money. I got my cousin to buy basic groceries to last 5 days...... She picked us up from town and drove us and groceries to my dad.

It is like WTF. Grocery issues and shop opening hours are the deciding factors when I book my tickets. If schools aligned the holidays to start a few days prior to Christmas/Easter instead of Bang up to the last moment, it would be better. I am not saying one should extend the holidays, but adjust when schools close before the holidays. Not much value in sitting around watching films and doing crafts for half the week in the run up to Christmas either.

I will have no choice but to continue this, and accept the fine. But ideally, the school holidays should be adjusted to give people time to travel to where they need to be in order to spend the holidays with their families.

[grumpyoldbat]

You should plead your case on that one quint. I would say that was special circumstances.

[Shockers]

It would be far easier, in our authority, to book holidays out of term time, if all schools had the same holiday dates. My school has different dates to DS's; DD's has different dates to both of ours. They do cross over for a few days at Easter and Whitsun, but not enough to book anything. Christmas was the same, I was back in school on Jan 2nd, whereas the DC's weren't back until the 7th.

So, for the last two years I have taken DS out for the first week of June. We go on activity holidays ( sailing, waterskiing, kayaking etc.)... the sort of thing a school would charge a small fortune for as a residential. I've been warned not to ask this year. BUT... school regularly take DS out for full days to compete in water polo tournaments. He has to catch up on work in his own time for this, just as he does for time off for holidays.

[cory]

How do we view children being taken out of school for the odd day to be interviewed for private school, compete in international athletics competitions, audition for stage school, take part in a professional theatrical performance? These are problems that come up now and then on MN.

It's the kind of activity that schools might well refuse permission for because they have not organised it and have no interest in it, but it's hard to claim it is irrelevant for the education of that particular child.

Also how about the last holiday with a terminally ill parent who is not expected to live until the next scheduled school holiday? (this came up at dd's school, HT first gave permission and then had it put down as unauthorised)

[Lambsie]

In my experience,as a parent of a child with severe sn, his school are happy for him to be absent when it suits them ( ie you don't need to bring him back after his medical appointment) but not on the rare occasion when we have asked because it would make our lives a lot easier.

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

Teaching children to break a law, lie about it or be flippant about it is one the reasons there is a lack of respect in children, that causes many of the problems in school today

Well said, "Broken". There's endless self-justification on here, but so far I don't think I've seen anyone address this point - interesting, that

FWIW I fully agree that education doesn't stop at the school door, which is why there are about 180 other days for families to be together and share experiences. I also appreciate that for some, it can be hard to get time off work or afford a foreign holiday in July/August ... in which case find alternatives at other times of year. Unfortunately we can't always have things we want, and a cheap sunshine holiday while the kids should be in school is one of them

[Nataleejah]

Should school be a prison sentence?

[Pagwatch]

I'm sorry that you have that experience Lambsie.

My son has severe asd and is at a special school and they have agreed every single time we have asked.
His sister is at an independent school and we sometimes pull him so that we can whizz off when it's quieter.
It's fantastic for both of them.
We are lucky enough to take him to lots of new places which have created bursts of new skills, expanded his food choices etc etc.

This thread is making me count my blessings.

[cory]

I could never tell my children to lie. Absolutely not. I just couldn't.

But am still prepared to fume quietly to think that these days my terminally ill friend's last holiday with her children would have incurred a massive fine because bastard school chose to put it down as unauthorised after they had first told her she could book the tickets (funded by a charity).

They also put one of dd's hospital stays down as unauthorised though they knew perfectly well where she was.

There is no way that school would ever have agreed to a holiday just because dd was ill and needed to get away: they queried every visit to the hospital.

[Lambsie]

My son's school won't authorise any holiday in any circumstances. I am pretty sure they wouldn't check if we said he was ill but I'm not prepared to say he is ill when he is not (especially since he is ill a lot).

[doitmyself]

I'm so pleased the OP thinks education is a right and privilege (I cant spell that word). Perhaps she can find a school place for my son then. He's been in education in a mainstream primary brilliantly but the LA has no place to offer him at secondary because he is bright but blind and in a wheelchair. Not one place. The SN schools are all for learning disabilties and they claim no mainstream will adapt for him.
Apparently education isnt allowed for all.

[desertmum]

It's more bureaucracy isn't it ? Because there is a 'rule' it appears people think it has to be held to hard and fast - when in fact there should be leeway for situations such as Cory's - I'm not suggesting children should be told to lie about these issues but there are times when pulling children from school needs to be done. And each case should be judged on it's own merit - not have an across the board NO. Travel is educational - it can broaden the mind and open people up to new experiences - but times when children are pulled from school need to be sensible - once years 10 upwards are reached it is pretty important that attendance is consistent. But one of the posts on this issue that everyone was getting aerated about was for a year 6 child taking a week off in June after SATs. Not a biggie in my opinion. Nor was she, as far as I'm aware, going to ask her child to lie about the trip.

[OrangeMochaFrappucino]

As a secondary school teacher, I would have to agree that in Y10 and Y11, a termtime holiday really can be damaging in terms of missing prep for controlled assessment/exams. Otherwise, I am fine with it provided the parent does not expect catch up work to be provided. I have had parents request worksheets in the past - I never use worksheets, I'm not prepared to create them specially for one child going on holiday and it in no way substitutes for the learning they have missed. If you want to take them away then fine, but it shouldn't create extra work for teachers, especially as this can be multiple children all off at different times over the year - accept that we can't plan for this or easily accommodate it and your child will miss whatever they miss.

[MrsCakesPremonition]

jelly - it would be nice though if the teacher could say what it was the child had missed. In advance or after the event - just the LO would be helpful.

[OrangeMochaFrappucino]

I'd be happy to do that, of course. But in the past have been expected by parents to do lunch time catch up sessions or send work away which is rarely practical.

[MrsCakesPremonition]

Totally agree that parents shouldn't expect teachers to mop up any educational fallout from the holiday.

[TitsalinaBumSquash]

I believe a good relationship between the family and school are important, the ridiculous rules that schools are being told to enforce are making it impossible for that relationship to be good, holidays, packed lunch policing.. It's all getting silly now.

I know my children and I act in a way I feel is best for them.

My eldest son isn't likely to live long enough to make use of a high school education so I'm going to do my damnedest to let him see the world and have experiences while he's still well enough to do it.

He's desperate to visit the Natural History Museum at the moment but putting him into a very crowded environment isn't wise for his health so if we go it will be during school.

I'm sick of being told what I can and can't do with my own children!

[brokenpurpleheart]

So mrscake'you would like a copy of every planner for two weeks from every teacher .... So 25 objectives per week (in my school) ....

Teachers have a long term plan but these change daily to accommodate the fact that lessons, like children, sometimes go off plan.

What would you plan to do with these objectives?

[MrsCakesPremonition]

No - just so that my child and I knew what they had missed so that we as a family could look at trying to smooth the gap rather than expecting the teacher to do it. TBH it's not a problem at my DCs school as they publish this information to all parents on the class websites.
At my own school though there was an attitude that it was none of the parents business.