To actually love Russell Brand after his performance on Newsnight tonight..?

[Scarletohello]

My God I only caught it by chance and I literally couldn't believe what he was saying to Paxman. He was calling for a revolution in society, for wealth to be distributed and he was so articulate and passionate about it. NO ONE is saying this stuff although there is so much anger in British society about how inequitable society has become but everyone has become so demoralised about it ( or blaming immigrants, asylum seekers etc)

I hope you guys get a chance to see it and tell me what you think of it, I am in shock right now.

( also pissed off about AF being banned too...)

[voiceofnoreason]

RB is welcome to do as he wishes with his money. I resent and fundamentally disagree with him telling me how i should dispose of mine. No matter how good the cause! Further, for him to suggest revolution and asset confiscation is childish - "c minus" RB get past chapter 2 of politics for showbiz.

There is no such thing as government money. Only money it has taken from taxpayers with threat of punishment. We put up with it as long as we see results. However - i cannot abide those who promote more and more confiscation safe in the knowledge it wont affect them - only poor bloody muggins.

[PresidentServalan]

And if he chooses not to vote, he has no right to a political opinion.

I would do Paxman though!

[PresidentServalan]

He is minted and that's fine but it comes across as patronising that he talks about how poor people feel about anything.

[flatpackhamster]

semirurallife

^flatpackhamster I wasn't going to make this a personalized thing but I shall try to explain...
inequality is not a natural fact; it is a social and political one.^

Inequality is a natural fact. Take primates. Chimps compete with other members of their social group for access to food and mating rights. Some get more than others.


and there is not only one variant of socialism.

No, indeed. In some variants only a handful of the population are tortured or starved, in others it's large percentages.

In Cuba, there is no adult illiteracy, as there is here. Life expectancy there is not determined by your income, as disparities in the life expectancy between residents of Kensington and Chelsea and more deprived areas show it is often here.

Cuba is often cited as a fine example of a socialist state. However, Cuba spent decades being directly subsidised by the Soviets - then by Venezuela after the collapse of the SU.

It's certainly possible to achieve a socialist paradise when you don't have to worry about where the money to achieve it is coming from.

and you can look at tribal societies in southern Africa and in the Amazon who live in what you might call socialist states, who live with a great deal more harmony and accord than we do.

But they aren't states and you shouldn't try to compare them. The main reason is that they are operating at the natural social group size for humans (about 75-150 people). Beyond that, it's hard for everyone to know everyone else and their business. In a tribal society everyone is related, albeit distantly, and when you help someone out you're doing it because they're part of your group. The same doesn't apply when you're being taxed at 50% in order to pay for people you don't know, have never met, never will meet and have nothing in common with.

By and large the rule of thumb is people are happy to help out when they're related (or closely connected), less so when they're distantly related and not at all when they've got nothing to do with the other person.

You can't simply scale up and expect it to work. Of course they live in more harmony and accord.

I don't think I said we should take an outmoded form of doctrinal politics and reproduce it in 21st century Britain; I was merely observing that the polarization of views, and the mocking of Brand for mentioning the s word, rather shows that we are very narrow in what we consider balanced political debate.

Well, why not include Nazism in the political debate then? Both socialism and Nazism employ the same principles - subordination of the individual to the state and demonisation of anyone who does not fit the state's approved definitions of behaviour or thought.

Why can't we talk about renationalising rail and gas supplies, when in fact the government is subsidizing private companies to make vast profits out of both?

You can talk about it all you like. Unlike in a socialist state, nobody's here to tell you what you're allowed to talk about.

I don't want to get off the subject (which is why Russell Brand is ghastly) but a quick point about nationalised railways - the Beeching Axe could never have happened under a privatised system.

whether or not the man is a crank or a comedian is neither here nor there.

Actually, it is. Does he really have a place on the BBC's flagship politics programme? Really? Is there nobody with a greater understanding of the world they could have found?

anyone who puts forward such ideas seems labelled thus

Mmm. Indeed.

[voiceofnoreason]

flatpack - i think i luff you a little bit

[Takver]

"Takver The nordics you mention are not socialist countries they are social democracies and are quite keen on capitalism"

I have no idea about Russell Brand (though stimulating discussion about politics has to be a good thing), but 99.99% of people campaigning for 'socialism' in this country are aiming for Scandinavian style social democracy.

In the same way, 99.99% of those promoting free market capitalism are aiming for a loosely regulated society which still has state maintained roads, armed forces, police, central bank etc. Very few want a genuinely free market with no state intervention.

It would be naive of me to criticise the right by claiming they want some kind of libertarian jungle: similarly one cannot criticise the Left by claiming they are planning a state socialist dictatorship.

[carlajean]

Me too.

[claig]

"Why is RB on News night at all. Leaving aside whether you find him entertaining/sexy/intelligent ( no to all of those from me) why should we be paying attention to somebody who is essentially a media whore."

Exactly, carlajean.

I think it is the typical BBC left wing propaganda/promotion. I think they hope that by giving a clown like him publicity that he will be able to pull in the voters "from the streets", where he claims to have come from. They hope that they can make being against the Tories trendy.

Unfortunately, they do not realise that it will backfire on them and that the public will vote in the opposite direction.

He said "the planet is being destroyed", but that is now passe, old hat, yesterday's spin, the public in great numbers no longer believe it. He tried to be populist and Paxman mentioned "populist". Brand was right about the elite, the 1% and the 99%. But he then ruined it with "the planet is being destroyed". That spin no longer washes with the masses. He mentioned "Occupy Wall Street", but "Occupy Wall Street" just followed on from the original anti-Wall Street, ant-elite, populist party - the Tea Party.

Brand is trying to steal the clothes of the populist and pretend that he is anti-elite. But he failed, because he used the elite's argument "the planet is being destroyed" (which politicians like Gordon Brown would probably agree with) and because he was given lots of uncritical airtime on the elite BBC news programme, Newsnight, and because he is a Hollywood star who claims he "came from the street". There are lots of people like him in the "metroplitan classes" but very few like him "on the streets". The public are much too smart to fall for spin.

The real populist parties are right wing parties like UKIP. All across Europe, right wing parties are growing while left wing elite parties are declining. I think this was an attempt by the left wing establishment and the BBC to stem the tide and to try to paint the left as populist and anti-elite.

The New Statesman has apparently made Russell Brand a guest editor. That sums up how vacuous and desperate the left are. They aren't serious and are not serious about helping the public get through austerity and get real change. I looked at the New Statesman the other day and couldn't believe what I saw. It was like a trendy lifestyle magazine with trendy articles on things like "Why I hate the World Cup?" and other insiginificant side issues that were only about posing and being pretentious rather than addressing the serious problems that the people face. It was full of Oxbridge intellectuals posing and pretending that they knew about the people "on the streets". The "metropolitan classes" have now picked the biggest sham intellectual poseur of all, Russell Brand, in the hope that he will help them attract voters.

Brans is of the left and right on, he thinks there'll be a right on revolution but he is wrong. He misunderstands what is going on. There will be a populist swing, but it will be from the left to the right.

The left want Brand to help them stem the tide. But it won't work, because times are serious, the public is serious and Brand is a clown.

[MumToOneMogwai]

I would have been really interested to hear a genuine answer from Jeremy to the question 'aren't you bored, sitting here year on year listening to this shite?' [i may be paraphrasing]. Also, I'd do both of them not proud me

[claig]

Miliband has been told byhis advises that he is out of touch with the public on welfare cuts, and that they are playing well with the majority of the public. Cameron has finally had the courage to listento the public mood and begin to talk about rolling back the green taxes and subsidies.

And then the left promote and give a platform to Brand, who says the exact opposite and promotes the old passe elite's policies while the real populists and people demand change.

Bring it on I say. Give Brand as much airtime as possible. Make every BBC Newsnight all about Brand, let him explain how the "planet is being destroyed" and then watch how the left's chances are thoroughly destroyed.

[hiddenhome]

Oh dear, the silly sod poor love sounds like a sociology student

[Lazysuzanne]

Claig, yes I thought his 'the planet is being destroyed' line was very old hat.

Paxman just sat back and let Brand paint himself as a light weight and a clown

[voiceofnoreason]

But they aren't are they - RB isnt and a whole plethora of people from MN to the front benches of the opposition are clamouring to take more and more of peoples money away cos they know best.

And look at the economic model of sweden. Their central bank has implemented tough austerity measures, they have removed inheritance tax, wealth tax, raised the entire retirement age to 67 (even for teachers and firemen). Their public debt is well below ours and public spending as a % of GDP is about the same as ours. And similar to the uk there has been a massive shift from the public to the private sector for employment. They introduced Free Schools well ahead of the same model here and allow both privately owned schools and hospitals to make a profit from the taxpayer. Now - steady there, don't clutch the pearls too tightly. In fact much of the Tory reform agenda has been lifted from the Swedish model.

So yeah - lets introduce a bit more of Sweden - after all they make naice middle class cars too and eat lots of herring.

[claig]

I am sure Paxman would rather have interviewed someone serious, but he was probably told to go and visit the clown. One of the "metropolitan classes" probably thought that the left was losing votes and the only solution was to "send in the clowns".

It was cringe-making, embarrassing and patronising as only the left can be.

But let's hope they do more of it, let's hope they invite the "thinker" Brand on to Question Time and Any Questions and This Week and on to Today and Newsnight and let's hope they make an election broadcast with the clown explaining how "the planet is being destroyed".

The left wing "metropolitan classes" in their Islington ivory towers and BBC boardrooms don't understand the people. That's why they invited Brand in, they believe his claims that he came "from the streets" and they hope that that clown can connect with us. But they are wrong and can't get anything right.

The more publicity they give Brand, the more votes they will lose. So bring it on, it will be the left's swan song.

[IHaveA]

Russell Brand makes THIS recent Newsnight guest seem positively erudite.

[claig]

IHaveA, exactly right, and the Cookie Monster is also better looking than Brand to boot.

[claig]

Oh and the BBC had Brand on and predictably Brand said "I am against the Daily Mail".

Bring it on, Britain's biggest pseud versus Britain's second highest selling newspaper. The left wing elite class versus the people. There will only be one winner.

[SoniaGluck]

I think it is the typical BBC left wing propaganda/promotion. You do know that the left believes the BBC to be right wing, don't you?

What I really would genuinely like to know is - this low tax, deregulated, strictly market-led economy that some posters are advocating in opposition to the 'nasty' socialism that Brand argues for - what would it actually look like?

[DuckToWater]

I'd like a peaceful revolution though not a bloody one, thanks. Violent revolutions don't work out too well for women and children.

[DuckToWater]

If the left believes the BBC to be right wing, and vice versa, it probably means it is actually quite balanced.

I find in news coverage broadly it doesn't question the incumbent government enough, or whatever colour and trots out govt press releases unamended far too often. This is partly to do with a cut in resources and partly to do with post-Iraq war, WMDs and Alistair Campbell when they got roasted for criticising the govt (and the criticism was entirely justified).

Broadly the output in programming is centre left and liberal. They do have quite right wing people like Dominic Sandbrook doing documentaries about how Thatch was great and the miners were terrible though.

[EverythingUnderControl]

'Paxman just sat back and let Brand paint himself as a light weight and a clown'

Yes, he could have swatted him like a fly but he largely just let him get on with it. For someone who craves attention that was even more damming for RB than arguing him.

[voiceofnoreason]

Sonia

Sweden
Canada
Switzerland
Latvia
Finland
Germany
US
Singapore


Or an amalgam of all of them?

[claig]

'You do know that the left believes the BBC to be right wing, don't you?'

I know that the left say that, but that is an attempt to hide the true facts. They also say "we have passed the tipping point" and we will have "cataclysmic catastrophic climate change" but people stopped believing what they say years ago.

"this low tax, deregulated, strictly market-led economy"

Low tax means that people would be able to keep more of their hard-earned money in their pockets instead of handing it over to politicians so that they can use it to claim duck houses, moats and bath plugs and use it to pay for street football co-ordinators and climate change committees instead of improving care for the elderly and ensuring that nurses give people decent hospital care. It means that state 'fat cats' can't make hay with the people's money to fund their pet projects anymore.

"Deregulated" means that there wil be less red tape and regulations which inhibit the growth of small businesses who can then release staff from reading legal documents and wading through reams of red-tape and allow them to contribute productively to their core business. This will lead to growth and more profitablity for small businesses which will allow them to hire more workers and reduce unemployment.

"market-led economy" means that businesses will not be funded with the money of hardworking taxpayers and will have to stand on their own two feet. It means there will be no more waste of £100 million on a BBC database and that there wil be no more golden goodbyes and severance payments and preposterous pension payments to BBC and public sector staff paid for from the graft and sweat of the people who can't claim for second-homes or even for bath plugs.

[Lazysuzanne]

Paxman was using Brand for sport, a performing monkey, rattle his cage and watch him do his little dance

[Lazysuzanne]

Everything he sure could've swatted him...but who would break a butterfly on a wheel