AIBU to think that father may have taken this to court to get his own back on ex-wife

[LoveSewingBee]

Court has decided that two girls will be given MMR jab against their own wishes and against wishes of their mother

I am all for vaccinating, but surely this will be very traumatic especially for the vegan girl. I really think that it is wrong what their father has done here and this is being done to get his own back on his ex.

What do you think?

[saintlyjimjams]

Oh I agree - I have sought my 11 year old's opinions on vaccination & taken them on board. It's a conversation that we have every now & then because I am aware I have made an unconventional decision for him.

Ds1 cannot consent or not consent to any medical procedure ( thanks in part to vaccination ) but even then his lack of willingness to take part in a medical procedure is 'listened' to & procedures that would most definitely be in his interest (such as properly checking his teeth) are not performed. I cannot see how in practical terms you carry out a procedure against the wishes of children of this age. If the girls do properly object & show that objection to the nurses/doctors I would be staggered if the vaccination are given.

Would be different if it were just mum & dad having a pop at each other & the girls had no strong opinions.

[BasilBabyEater]

I think it's astonishing that a 15 year old is not considered to have capacity to make choices about her own body tbh. It's very worrying what that teaches her about rights over her own body.

I hate the way so many people say both parents are at fault for it getting to court - just because something has ended up in court, doesn't mean it is because both parents are unreasonable, it could be because one of them is terribly unreasonable and insists on taking the other reasonable parent to court maliciously, or that the one who is taken to court is so unreasonable that the other parent feels they really have no option but to do that, or that both of them are perfectly reasonable people with very strongly held beliefs who find that there is no other way of settling it than court.

Unreasonable people exist. Sometimes reasonable people marry them and reproduce with them. When the shit hits the fan, it's not necessarily because one or both of them are unreasonable.

(Disclaimer: I've never been taken to court or taken anyone to court, so I don't have an axe to grind on this issue, I just can't stand the automatic assumption that court = loons.)

[NotYoMomma]

I told a nurse very clearly when I was 13 that of she gave me a needle I would break her arm.

I was so scared

I didnt care about the ingredients of vaccines or what it was for or weighing up the pros and cons

I did not want an injection

if someone had given me one or forced one on me they would 1) never live it down
2) I would never have spoken to them again
3) except to try and take it further as I would have viewed it as assault

[lljkk]

I'm pretty rampantly pro-jabs and even I think it's wrong to force them like this.

[PumpkinGuts]

As a 25 year old pregnant woman Iwas forced to explain over and over why I was "risking my baby" by nit having swine flu jab. I'm not at all surprised they decided a 15 year old who is clearly aware of her own ideas (hence veganism) got it wrong.

[GatoradeMeBitch]

It's an important jab, of course they should have it. The article says the 15 year old only needs the booster anyway.

Something that crossed my mind with the competency issue, is that perhaps the older child has autism and the parents thought the jab may have caused it? I remember there being a lot of press about the link between MMR jab and autism about a decade ago.

[IneedAsockamnesty]

All those saying the father is wrong being controlling,

What makes his view point on the matter less valid than the mothers?

How come the mothers refusal is not her being controlling?

And I say the mother as opposed to the children because all the information we have is that the children's opinion is nothing other than the mothers and face it children do not get to make the final decision on important stuff if they did then they wouldn't need parents.

[saintlyjimjams]

So you would hold a child own & forcibly give then the jab sock?

My issue isn't about the parents views it's that - if the reports are correct - the 15 year old has decided she doesn't want it. If she is serious about that then it will need to be forcibly given.

I have found medics rather reluctant to hold my own son down to treat him - even when he had a suspected broken ankle.

[IneedAsockamnesty]

I have had to hold one of my children down when they were refusing treatment its sometimes a fact of life I've also watched medical staff do it, not nice but it was needed at the time.


But for a vaccination nope i wouldn't but none of my children (apart from the one who cannot have it due to a problem) would ever have had it left until that age they were all done when little and were not given an option and I certainly wouldn't fill my child's head with crap about it thus ensuring a dramatic reaction.

[saintlyjimjams]

You've held own an older child? 5 people couldn't hold down my son, then aged around 10, for a necessary x ray. Well i suppose they could have tied him down, but they wouldn't. He wasn't given it.

I can't imagine by doctor or nurse holding down a 15 year old to forcibly inject them short of their life being in immediate danger.

[IneedAsockamnesty]

Yes I have held down an older child at the same time as several of the medical staff involved did, the only other option would have been very undesirable.

But as I said I would not for a jab they were done when little

[Strumpetron]

I'd like to know why this was made into such a bloody hoo ha in the first place.
If the mother did the correct research instead of listening to falsified reports and scare mongering this wouldn't have happened.

It does scare me that the court has such power over making 2 girls have something they do not want - even though I do agree with them having it

[saintlyjimjams]

Well I'm surprised. Medical staff run away from ds1 as soon as he yelps. He's 14 now & I can't imagine him being held down for anything. They didn't even manage to shine a slit lamp on him 3 years ago, and abandoned photographic attempts to document his moles. And he does not have capacity. The idea of doing that to someone his age with some sort of understanding of not being listened to is horrifying.

FWIW I was involved in trying to hold him down for the X-ray. It was horrific - it left me feeling dirty, and years later I think we tried for too long. I understand medical staff's reluctance & why they will not force treat.

[saintlyjimjams]

Strump - in my sons' case some doctors think my younger sons would be safe being vaccinated. Some think it's wiser to be very very cautious. In general those more expert in ds1 or his condition think ds2 & ds3 should be left unvaccinated. Who to listen to?

It's an issue for us because at some stage ds1 will pass into the care of people who do not know him or his family history. A vaccination could be a disaster for him - but as soon as he is out of our care that's it- he won't have capacity, so will have no say & neither will we. It does worry me.

[saintlyjimjams]

Molding I would have thought the same will happen. If the girls object when in the room it won't be given. Nurses and doctors are generally very aware of consent & assent.

[IneedAsockamnesty]

Well to be honest the circumstances warranted it, I would do exactly the same thing again, the child in question knows that if it had not been done the way it was they would more than likely have died an obviously undesirable outcome.

But again I would not do it for a minor issue especially not a jab.

If the mother in this case had done her prep work and made sure the girls knew the bigger picture and that it was the girls actual belief as opposed to her own if she had prepared them with enough info to make an informed choice they would have been able to demonstrate this and its quite likely the judge would have ruled differently or even made no order at all.

But she didn't,it was clearly evident to the judge that this had not happened and that parroting was occurring,if this was not about jabs we would be calling that emotional abuse. Fair play to the dad for at least trying to protect his children from that.

[saintlyjimjams]

Well there isn't a 'medicine' for measles (or mumps or rubella for that matter). Unless they mean iv vitamin A which is useful if you are malnourished, but maybe not if you aren't. Perhaps they wanted them to say 'paracetamol' or 'antibiotics for secondary infections'.

I wonder how many people receiving MMR (or consenting to their children getting it) could answer that question.

[IneedAsockamnesty]

Its quite likely that they didn't need to know the exact treatment and more likely they only needed to know that pretty much most treatments for most things have some type of ethical animal related issue attached to them,as opposed to that particular issue solely being vaccine related.

[saintlyjimjams]

I would still be interested in how many people receiving the vaccination would 'pass' such a test or it's equivalent.

I have, for example, come across someone who spread rubella around because she had no idea her child could get rubella despite being vaccinated. Surely that's a fail in ''understanding vaccination 101)

[notallytuts]

they werent expected to know what the ingredients of treatment for measles/mumps/rubella would be They were expected to have thought about what they might be - i.e. that they might also contain animal ingredients, if there are concerns re veganism - that doesnt seem like an unfair suggestion as something they perhaps should have considered.

[IneedAsockamnesty]

They thought the vaccine protected them from nothing more than a minor rash

[saintlyjimjams]

Hm - and something doctors quiz patients upon on arriving for vaccination?

I must admit I might have prepped my children better (they would have been sent in with some comments from peer reviewed journals and published scientists) but still, forcible vaccination of a 15 year old? Even if her arguments wouldn't make it into a peer reviewed journal. It is my opinion (to make it clear - I of course do not know, but my experience cynicism suggests it to be the case) that they would not be asking for as much proof of understanding if she wanted the vaccination.

As someone who doesn't vaccinate I have no problems with 15 year old making up their own mind (as already said if ds2 or ds3 come to me aged 15 and say they want to be vaccinated I will help them organise it). I have big problems with 15 year olds being forced to undergo any medical procedure they do not consent to. They are large at they age. None compliance leads to bruising.