AIBU to think that father may have taken this to court to get his own back on ex-wife

[LoveSewingBee]

Court has decided that two girls will be given MMR jab against their own wishes and against wishes of their mother

I am all for vaccinating, but surely this will be very traumatic especially for the vegan girl. I really think that it is wrong what their father has done here and this is being done to get his own back on his ex.

What do you think?

[JakeBullet]

I must admit to being pretty pro vaccines but this case left an uncomfortable feeling with me. It certainly crossed my mind that it could be a power trip by the Dad....I know it isn't definite but even so.

Then again neither of the girls could justify properly why they didn't want the vaccine and they had extensive discussions to clarify this. Both repeated what their mum was saying.

I wonder how they will enforce this though.

[Hissy]

If my son's dad wrote to me to tell me do do anything or he'd take me to court, i'd tell him to go fuck himself.

If he disagrees with a parenting decision, then his responsibility would have been to educate his children, presuming he even has a good relationship with frequent contact and make sure that they were working on the facts.

By bulldozing in, threatening his ex, and his kids, further dragging it into court and get someone to side with him, he's more than violated his position with his children.

The only sensible decision by the court would have been to arrange proper access and instruction on the vaccines, the ingredients, the pros and cons and support these young people to make an informed decision.

Forcing a vaccine against anyone's will is wrong. This is not life saving, it's potentially reducing risk of contagion only.

With freedom comes responsibility; we as a society need to make sure people are educated and understand their available choices, not make their own choices for them. We need to understand that we are free to make our own decisions, and that we are responsible for the consequences.

[Hissy]

The second he being this dad with the lawyer. Sorry, on phone!

[Hissy]

Being assessed is very far from attending a course, receiving instruction, over time and without pressure to reach an informed decision.

Agreed, we don't know the full ins and outs, but forcing children to do something against their will is wrong, doing nothing now, arranging education, and reviews in a period of time would be better.

This is not like the Neon case where he'd most likely have died or had his prognosis seriously affected without the treatment. This is 'only' vaccination.

[redcaryellowcar]

sorry I haven't read whole thread, but I do think that it is ridiculous that the 15 year old could take herself to the doctors set herself up for regular or emergency contraception and the doctor not tell her parents, which I think is absolutely right yet a judge can force her to have a vaccination against her wishes (Idon't want to make this about something its not but merely an illustration that she is some areas of medicine and her on health is deemed perfectly capable of making informed choices)
I do feel it is possibly a bit of the father exerting power and using justice system for his own gain.
I am not sure if separate vaccination were discussed as I believe both measles and rubella are available privately for a lot less than the cost of taking this case to the high court!

[saintlyjimjams]

Yes I agree I am assuming a judge/dr whatever would be more likely to assume capacity if the child were agreeing with majority opinion - especially in the case of vaccinations.

I wonder what will happen if she refuses consent in the consulting room, either by kicking or screaming it even simply refusing to roll up her sleeve. I would be stunned if any medical professional force vaccinated her. Either of them actually. I have just remembered hearing about a teenager locally with AS who was very anxious about needles. He kicked off so much that even though parental consent had been given he wasn't vaccinated.

And what happens if it doesn't happen before the girl is 16 - according to GMC & NHS documents it is usual to assume capacity at that age. Unless the girl has learning disabilities I think it would be hard up argue she wasn't capable of making her own decision.

[PumpkinGuts]

A 15 year old should have total autonomy over her own body and I think she will really struggle with father after this. I agree with pag that this is dick waving.

[Hissy]

.. or the decision could have been left to the girls themselves..

At this age, the parents have very little right to demand one thing or another if it's not actually a legal requirement.

[quoteunquote]

But the discrediting of concerns about an MMR autism link and recent measles outbreaks changed the father's view.

the start of this quote from Carl Sagan should be taken on board when making new decisions.

In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day

Lots of parents were duped by Andrew Wakefield, news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8695267.stm

The father in this case has taken on the new information and is trying to implement it, to protect his children, very odd to imply he is doing it out of spite, when all the available evidence supports his stance.

Alwin Toffler said, " The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. ”

Sir Harold Kroto gave us, "Scientist have a responsibility,or at least I feel I have a responsibility to ensure that what I do is for the benefit of the human race, It is important that we try to point out facts to help those in power make decisions, unfortunately, this is not often the case, although knowledge cannot guarantee good decisions, common sense suggests that wisdom is an unlikely consequence of ignorance."

If anyone has any evidence that proves that immunisations are more dangerous that not being immunised, write it down and get peer reviewed.

Because the trotting out of ignorance, does cost lives.

and as I am in the mood for quotes,

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” Neil deGrasse Tyson

Parents are meant to do what is best for their children, this father is trying to do that, these children have an ignorant mother, but the OP opens with I really think that it is wrong what their father has done here and this is being done to get his own back on his ex.

Yet what he asking for is a layer of proven protection to his children's lives.

[Wheatus]

What does 'dick waving' mean?

[saintlyjimjams]

Quote - I'm sorry I don't see your post as relevant. The issue isn't the MMR/autism case at all here. I have refused all vaccinations for my younger children & never had my capacity questioned (indeed they would struggle as I have a PhD in a science subject).

Vaccinations do come with a risk - however small - and are not compulsory, therefore people such as myself are allowed to refuse to take that risk & that is accepted. It is not questioned at all in fact a number of medics have agreed with it but anyway my capacity is accepted & so I can make that decision

Chunderella - I do understand what you are saying but in real life practice in the absence of learning disabilities (or a high court case) capacity is generally assumed at 16. By 18 there would certainly be no issue at all with someone refusing to be vaccinated.

Furthermore in my experience when someone lacking capacity shows an unwillingness to agree to a medical procedure (eg by requiring excessive restraint to have the procedure carried out) it is usual for the procedure not to be performed. Even if those who are acting to give consent have done so.

[saintlyjimjams]

By 18, assuming no learning disabilities I mean. I have never had to prove capacity to refuse vaccinations.

[Wheatus]

poster babybarrister Sat 12-Oct-13 11:16:11

'The judge is one of the most sensible, sensitive and compassionate people you could ever care to meet. She would have considered this case very carefully and would have been very well aware of the parental dynamics at play. None of us were there to hear all the evidence - I rather suspect that the girls were in fact NOT that opposed but rather gave wishy washy answers as if they had been very adamant - particularly the 15 year old, I doubt she would have made the order.

We have some really good judges out there and Mrs Justice Theis is one of them. The public need to regain their confidence in judicial decision making'


I'm going with babybarrister.
Sounds very on the ball.

[PeppiNephrine]

I always wonder why randoms on the internet think they know better than the judge, who heard all of the evidence and used their considerable talents to adjudicate, based on a short news article and their own uninformed and biased opinions.
Is it huge arrogance, or just that they think that every opinion they have is worth the same as anyone elses? It's very strange.

[Pagwatch]

Dick waving. A pissing contest..
It's not obscure is it?

I have no doubts about the judge.
I have doubts about how the legal system gets forced to make decisions that loving parents should drop their difference to resolve.

I am a random on the Internet. It's a chat board.

[saintlyjimjams]

No, it's just surprise that a 15 year old is to be vaccinated against her will. The decision that it is in her interests to be vaccinated don't surprise me at all. Unless she has learning disabilities though I am surprised that it was decided she needed to be forcibly vaccinated.

I do wonder what will happen in practice if she continues to refuse as deciding that she should be vaccinated is different than actually forcibly doing it. I have been with ds1 who was 10 at the time refusing an X-ray. He had 5 people trying to hold him down & in the end the x ray wasn't taken. Age 5 he refused a blood pressure reading and that was abandoned as well. He has been held down for blood tests but I suspect that would have been abandoned if they had been unable to insert a cannula - I do know children where blood tests have been abandoned as well. And this is for children who do not have capacity - no question.

[pointyfangs]

I very much doubt that these girls' opinions have simply been walked all over; I suspect they would have been very thoroughly assessed. And if the only thing they were saying to clarify their motivations for refusing were parroted from their mother, then clearly there is an issue with consent.

Re the 11yo - I would not presume an 11yo cannot consent. My DD1 is 12 and recently started her course of HPV vaccinations. Her consent was explicitly sought on the form, and since I work in MH research I'm very au fait with the procedures of taking consent, so I have ensured that her consent was both valid and informed. There's not that enormous a difference in emotional maturity between 10 and 11.

Having said all of the above, I would question the father's motivations given the adversarial relationship between him and his ex wife...