To think Health Visitor home visits should be compulsory by law? Distressing content.

[PeaceBeWithYou]

If you miss one, cancel one, are not in etc, another one should be scheduled within 3 month period and if it is again missed without adequate explanation, then police should be granted access with a HV to check on the children's welfare. Health and well being home visits should be scheduled up to the age of 10 perhaps?

Rather extreme but could this have prevented Hamzah Khan's terrible life and needless, horrifying death?

Agencies were involved with the mother but she was 'obstructive' apparently. That poor boy must have been starved from birth to be so stunted in his growth. No medical reasons have been given and also no medical professionals were aware of it so it seems. No mention that Hamzah was ever seen by a HV. The mother did not seek medical attention either .

Those other 5 DC in the house were also subjected to living in absolute filth and from some of the houses I've sen it is probably the tip of the iceberg.

We are too bloody worried about upsetting parents and not enough focus is on helpless DC IMO. The gloves should be off. If you have DC which are part of society, then society should take a firmer hand into ensuring their well being as it seems all too apparent that some parents can't be trusted.

One life saved or changed would be well worth it IMO.

[ReallyTired]

Our infant mortality rates are pretty crap for a developed country. We have the 25th lowest infant mortality in the world.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate

Although these stastics are bit meaningless and different countites have different definitions of what is a still birth and what is a live birth.

[IamSlave]

The main problem is the perpetrators being able to lie to authorities. This goes across the board, child abuse, also abuse in care homes or home for the learning disabled.

If I was abusing someone and knew the date and time of the HCP visit, I would also make sure everything looked fine and dandy on that day.

Therefore I think un announced visits with the rights of the child rather than parent being paramount, where they can see the child, naked, watch it play etc, ask it alone how he/she feels etc.

I still remember how Baby P's mum was able to stuff him, with a broken back into a push chair in the kitchen whilst she sat and span more lies to the social worker right there in the room with him!

[fluffyraggies]

I understood it that on one had been into her home untill that police woman got entry. The photos of it on the news showed a mess that could in no way have been cleaned up in a hurry! :(

I have watched the report including the policewoman speaking about why she pushed until she finally gained entry. She described it as her maternal instinct telling her that a house that stank like that (through the letter box!) and that the state of the mother 'was just not normal or right when there are children inside'.

I don't know for sure the reason why the police woman was knocking that day, but someone on the news said the family was known to the authorities but only because of 7/8 domestic violence reports. It doesn't seem to be the case that this poor boy was finally discovered for any other reason other than responding to domestic violence reports. He would be laying there still if that police woman hadn't persisted in getting in :(

[passedgo]

Often these deaths are recorded as accidents, often they are, but sometimes caused by neglect. It's not just the death, it's the tip of the grim iceberg. It's the neglect and suffering that goes on and is perpetuated down the generations that goes along with each one of these statistics. I notice that those countries with the lowest death rates are also those with perhaps slightly less libertarian attitude (i.e. more public intrusion into lives).

Clutching - I too have this crazy situation where every medical professional I see asks me about my child's medical history rather than looking in the file. The paed records are all on paper, the GP has a computer system which helps and hospitals each have a separate record. We have quite a lot of A&E admissions but each time we go we may as well have a new child. One time I had to repeat what happened 7 times to different people. It took a long time for doctors to actually talk directly to dd instead of talking over her. I had to prompt them to do this.

But your point is really crucial - the NHS could be doing so much better with all this. Those people who mismanaged that wizbang computer system that cost us billions should all be held partly accountable for these deaths. I mean, how hard can it be to have a system, start it from scratch (no need to copy over old records, it can run concurrently) and allow access to relevant personnel from Police and SS. I mean, really. Yes it's big in terms of the data involved, but it's not all that complicated.

[Flatiron]

As a side issue, there still seems to be a strong correlation in some people's minds between 'cleanliness and tidiness' of the house and well looked after children. If that had been applied in my case in the weeks after I had any of my dc, I think they'd have been whipped away!

I still remember my hv saying, when I remarked, during her visit, on what an embarrassing slum I was living in, that she worried when a house was too tidy, as it meant that not enough attention was being given to the child! (Made me feel loads better, lovely woman!) I know that's a huge over-generalisation, and some abused children do live in really squalid conditions, just as some mega-tidy people are also wonderful parents.

It just emphasises how difficult it can be sometimes for the over-stretched professionals to get it right.

[giantpurplepeopleeater]

I would agree with you...... IF health visitors were actually properly trained health professionals who could give proper advice, pick up on issues properly and without hysterics, and could reasonably assess issues.

My experience is that they can do none of these consistently and without the need to pursue/ push you on to other healthcare professionals, push for particular types of parenting to be followed and not make clear what is advice and what it is based on, and can be quite over reactionary.

[IamSlave]

Flariton I agree with you, but really your house was as bad as those in the pics? There is messy build up where you have not cleaned for a few weeks but those pictures do show squalor.

[Notquitesureagain]

I haven't read the whole thread but really want to know why there isn't more focus on the boy's father? He doesn't seem to have done much other than put in one call to social services but yet he's barely been mentioned.

Leaving all that aside, it absolutely beggars belief that all the child's siblings etc could have lived like that, presumably knowing that the boy was dead, and that not a single adult who came into contact with them spotted that something was seriously amiss.

[Goldenhandshake]

OP YABU. The police force is facing huge cuts, how on earth will dragging them out to thousnads of homes of perfectly capable parents who simply do not want or need a HV intruding, help matters? It will just distract from needy and vulnerable people elsewhere.

What is needed is more resources and funding in social care, and more communication and 'joined up thinking' between schools, GP's, and social services. There are also more than likely a few social workers who should not be in that line of work, who have not/do not follow up when it is critically needed.

[ReallyTired]

"Leaving all that aside, it absolutely beggars belief that all the child's siblings etc could have lived like that, presumably knowing that the boy was dead, and that not a single adult who came into contact with them spotted that something was seriously amiss."

I imagine that the child's sibblings were battle tired and that every day was a fight for their survial. I hope they are getting the help and support that they need to come to terms with what has happened.

[Flatiron]

No, IamSlave , even at my least motivated, thankfully my house wasn't as bad as that.
I suppose I had that case in mind (can't remember which one, but it was mentioned upthread) and I'm sure there have been others, where the police were sent to check, found the house 'clean and tidy' and didn't think there was a problem. Also posted to highlight that there are genuinely lovely, helpful hvs about.

[friday16]

He doesn't seem to have done much other than put in one call to social services but yet he's barely been mentioned.

And that call itself is contested.

There's hideous sexism involved. The usual situation is that a child is with its mother, but is killed by the joint action of the mother and a new male partner. The mother is often vulnerable, but the social outrage is towards her, not him. A woman not protecting a child from abuse is seen as a terrible offence against humanity; a man inflicting the abuse (or, at best, not protecting a child from abuse) is seen as just one of those things. It's sexist towards women (who are criticised for not doing better) and, to coin a phrase, it's the sexism of low expectations towards men (who are excused for doing worse).

Unfortunately, corralling risk factors will be contentious. For example, there have been two MN threads in the last few months of the form "why is my school targeting help at children on FSM? My child is on FSM and is doing fine, so it's insulting". Additional help via Pupil Premium is hardly the arrival of the childcare Gestapo, no matter how sensitive you are to insult. But mothers whose children are abused are disproportionately likely to themselves have been involved in the care system; they have had difficult upbringings which mean they don't have a firm grasp of "normal" relationship, tend to be needy and tolerate treatment from violent men that is not acceptable more generally and to lack strong support networks to protect them. Connolly, Khan, Shuttleworth (Keanu Williams' mother), Climbie. Alternatively, they will be isolated for linguistic and cultural reasons, again lacking any sort of support network or relatives willing to intervene (Climbie, Ishak, Pelska, a case in Birmingham recently whose name I can't recall, a couple of horrific cases in the north of England last year).

But if you performed some factor analysis on child abuse cases, which would allow you to score people on a range of potential issues and the look more closely at families that score atypically, you can imagine the howling that would ensue. After yet another case involving a family that are living on the margins of society, the cry goes up that "abuse happens in middle-class households too and we shouldn't stigmatise". But there hasn't (wracks brain, comes up with nothing, willing to be shown wrong) a death from abuse and/or neglect in a middle-class family with employed parents in living memory. The abuse is different, and the means of detecting it and dealing with it are different, too. Deaths from physical neglect and abuse are not uniformly distributed through our society, and if we want to target help effectively, we shouldn't pretend that it is.

[Lazyjaney]

Agree with Friday16 re reliable factor analysis, but I'd also bet it trips over every PC tripwire going.

[Madeleine10]

"Leaving all that aside, it absolutely beggars belief that all the child's siblings etc could have lived like that, presumably knowing that the boy was dead, and that not a single adult who came into contact with them spotted that something was seriously amiss."*

This sheds some light on it, and also a neighbour contacted Ss in 2011 but whatever happened as a result, they didn't find the little boy.

//www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-24394980

[horsetowater]

Mr Hutton’s marriage broke down when his daughter was a rebellious teenager who regular smoked cannabis and she was soon living independently.
At 16, Hutton met 18-year-old Aftab Khan outside a nightclub in Bradford. She became pregnant in her teens with Tariq.
Khan worked as a mechanic and taxi driver. Hutton briefly worked as a care assistant, but primarily she looked after her children.
The court heard she was beaten by Khan throughout the 20-year relationship.
Her personal problems worsened dramatically a few months after Hamzah was born when Hutton’s mother Ann died from breast cancer in December 2005, leaving her heartbroken.
She was on anti-depressants for post-natal depression and turned increasingly to alcohol.
Police were regularly called to the house, but Hutton refused to make a complaint against her violent partner. She changed her mind and they finally split up in December 2008 after Khan attacked Tariq.
Khan was later convicted of beating Hutton.
During police interviews, he told officers: 'She’s a bitter and twisted woman and there’s something seriously wrong with her. She don’t brush her teeth, she don’t clean herself, she don’t look after herself. She’s an alcoholic.'

I got that from here

motherswhokillchildren.blogspot.co.uk/

[amawhoisayiam]

There should be some kind of check ups as there's barely any contact between parents and health professionals from one year to the next in a lot of areas.

And that evil woman shoould have got longer than 15 years, it should have been life and throw away the key.

[cestlavielife]

it was a psco who persevered to find out what was going on...
www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/mother-hamzah-khan-amanda-hutton-6135261

[IamSlave]

This PSCO is showing what was describe as lacking in the Stuart Hazell Tia sharpe case.

[BarnYardCow]

I am wondering whether linking the red book to child benefit would make any difference?

[MurderOfBanshees]

Not everyone gets CB any more though BarnYard

[Lexie1970]

Somebody asked further up thread asking about the father and lack of involvement .... I was wondering if he had some sort of court order barring him from family due to DV and then subsequent complaints about mother were seen as a case of sour grapes...

I cannot comprehend how teachers etc were not logging concerns over the other 5/6 children - were they clean, did their clothes fit did they seem happy - the one picture of hamza and he looks such a sad little soul :(

[Sirzy]

Its such a complex situation and I don't think something as simple as a HV visit would highlight enough to raise alarm bells in a lot of cases.

I do think more of a multi agency approach is needed, and more money (and training?) needs to be given to HV and SS to help them identify "at risk" families and provide them with support.

[BarnYardCow]

These people always seem to have enough money for themselves or their drink etc, shame you can't ensure it gets spent on the children somehow. Unfortunately, there is aleays someone that finds a way around the system.

[IamSlave]

more money (and training?) needs to be given to HV and SS to help them identify "at risk" families and provide them with support

But the pcos who used tenacity and gut instinct to get in that house, had only been on the job for one day?

She didnt mention special training, she said it was gut instinct, and sort of obvious there were problems....

[Charlottehere]

Nope, strongly believe in a parents right to decline hv visits. I never have although would have liked to with dc3/4. Mostly crap ime but one was a life saver.