To think Health Visitor home visits should be compulsory by law? Distressing content.

[PeaceBeWithYou]

If you miss one, cancel one, are not in etc, another one should be scheduled within 3 month period and if it is again missed without adequate explanation, then police should be granted access with a HV to check on the children's welfare. Health and well being home visits should be scheduled up to the age of 10 perhaps?

Rather extreme but could this have prevented Hamzah Khan's terrible life and needless, horrifying death?

Agencies were involved with the mother but she was 'obstructive' apparently. That poor boy must have been starved from birth to be so stunted in his growth. No medical reasons have been given and also no medical professionals were aware of it so it seems. No mention that Hamzah was ever seen by a HV. The mother did not seek medical attention either .

Those other 5 DC in the house were also subjected to living in absolute filth and from some of the houses I've sen it is probably the tip of the iceberg.

We are too bloody worried about upsetting parents and not enough focus is on helpless DC IMO. The gloves should be off. If you have DC which are part of society, then society should take a firmer hand into ensuring their well being as it seems all too apparent that some parents can't be trusted.

One life saved or changed would be well worth it IMO.

[friday16]

I would now happily welcome random knock on the door visits for all households with small children.

How would that help? In most of the cases, the parents and the child are known to social services, the child is on whatever this week's name is for the "at risk" register and the parents and the child are regularly seen by doctors, social workers, health visitors and uncle Tom Cobley and all.

In the Hamzah case there was refusal of access, yes. But in all the recent high-profile cases (Williams, Pelska, Connolley, Ishak and going back Climbie) there has been constant involvement by social services, who had continuous and unobstructed access. The problem was that they saw their role as supporting the poor misunderstood mothers and carers, not protecting the children, and the mothers/carers were able to wrap the social workers around their little fingers. Cases where a child drops off the radar and is not seen by professionals are incredibly rare (can anyone recall a case similar to the Hamzah case in living memory?) Cases where a mother who is under daily supervision still manages to kill a child who is subject to regular case conferences and a protection plan are, tragically, a fuck of a lot more common.

[MurderOfBanshees]

"I would now happily welcome random knock on the door visits for all households with small children. Don't give any notice, just turn up and check living conditions and the health and well being of children. Yes, it would be fucking annoying and inconvenient but I am sick of the evil cunt parents getting way with murder. Something drastic needs to be done to protect helpless babies."

I totally get where you are coming from, but the other side of that coin is that in some cases HV's can make things worse. I know that for me personally the HV coming round was actually pushing me closer to a nervous breakdown, and therefore putting my DS more at risk. And I know I'm not the only one.

No idea how you'd get the balance right. :(

[Threalamandaclarke]

I have no idea whether this is workable. But I think being able to decline visits clearly helps some ppl hide the awful truth of what thy are doing to their own children.
As an aside, my HV is great. I found her very supportive when i've seen her. But it's hard to get to see her. They're obviously really busy.
My DH doesn't understand why anyone wouldn't want to see a HV. He thinks they must have something to hide . I must see if he's logged onto MN as OP.

[Threalamandaclarke]

Good point friday not enough child centred thinking.

[friday16]

But I think being able to decline visits clearly helps some ppl hide the awful truth of what thy are doing to their own children.

Some? Who? Even in the case of the OP's example of Hamzah Khan, there were two case conferences. It's a cop-out to think that these children were invisible to social services: they weren't.

[ReallyTired]

I had a lovely health visitor with my daughter, but I don't think that complusory checks is the way to go. A health visitor needs to build a rapport with a mother and should not be a wing of social services. Baby P had 60 visits in 8 months and still was not saved.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1323804/Baby-P-report-reveals-appalling-failures-cared.html

I feel it is unreasonable to that a reaction of the press when a baby dies is to blame social workers or health visitors. Contray to popular belief Baby P was murdered by his family and not social workers. I feel that anger should be directed at the Tracy Connelly, Jason Owen and Steven Barker.

I find it unbelievable tha Tracey Connelly has been allowed to walk free after 6 years for murdering her own baby. (Or at least standing by while her son was repeately beaten and her daughter raped - lets face none of that trio deserve to live!) It is shocking that Jason Owen has also only been given 6 years.

[Accidentallyquirky]

Yabu. There's only so many times I can have the same conversation with yet another hv and I'm yet to come across a nice health visitor who's opinion I trust etc.
I got my arse handed to me on a plate when I stopped breast feeding and I got a bollocking for not cancelling an appointment ( ds was rushed into hospital so sorry misses hv you where not on my priority list!)
Apparently I should have rang hv for advice in both cases yet I used my own common sense. I wasn't producing enough milk and he was hungry and then his throat and mouth swelled up so couldn't breathe properly.
I re made the appointment and the hv never showed up. Never heard from them since.

[kangarooshoes]

F*ck, no, please. HV are over-stretched as it is, and a complete waste of time for me. (not to mention, rude, ignorant, and crackers on some occasions.) I am close friends with a very good one, who is very over worked, and very good.

The villains in these things are not the HVs, or the GPs, or the system. It's the parents, through and through. There is no excuse for starving your child, and we shouldn't scapegoat those who 'should have done something!' These people ARE doing things, and doing their absolute best, and I bet more kids are picked up these days than a hundred years ago, and, yes, things can improve. But a knee-jerk 'everyone must be inspected, as all parents are potentially eeeeeevil!' is not the way forward.

[Morloth]

I am not actually sure what the HV was for.

We had one visit us after DS2 was born. She was very nice, had a cup of tea and remarked that he was huge (he was) and that was it.

The midwives who visited afterwards and who did the prick test etc were great.

But if I was abusing my kids there is no way the HV would have known about it.

How would a HV visiting everyone actually help and h ow are you going to pay for it?

[friday16]

I find it unbelievable tha Tracey Connelly has been allowed to walk free after 6 years for murdering her own baby.

She hasn't. She was given an indeterminate sentence with a five year minimum that has now expired. She's entitled to go to a parole board and ask to be freed. She (or her lawyers) have done so. Let's wait and see what the parole board say.

[CoconutRing]

To think Health Visitor home visits should be compulsory by law? - God no!

I worked with some fantastic HVs over the years, but they are too stretched now and their caseloads are huge. Unless there is a massive investment in the the future, I can't see the situation changing.

It seems that HVs have become more and more unwelcome with new mums. I have dealt with a recent complaint where a mum said that she wouldn't trust her HV with the dog!

Sad really, as my HV was brilliant and we are still friends.

[riskit4abiskit]

Another voice here just to add that my hv is a lovely lady and as a new mum I appreciated the support.
Think it is important to keep this service as universal for all and avoid stigmatising people who get hv visits or else they will be even less likely to engage with services and help.

[ChippingInNeedsSleepAndCoffee]

YABU

Pretty much all of these children were 'known' and 'failed' by the system, how on earth is forcing HV's onto everyone going to help?

BabyP had seen HV's, nurses & doctors the week he died.

[Sindarella]

I agree, i have no problems with a hv seeing my dc, i know they are looked after.
Even if the odd hv is useless, it would still be someone going to check on the child. You dont need to be a professional to be able to tell if a child is looked after.

Although there are flaws. Lack of communication is a well known problem when it comes to things like ss and hv. So there will be children forgotten about.

Also, how would a hv know they are seeing the right child? A parent could produce a different one and hv is none the wiser. I remember a case about twins where one was abused but the other was not. They were 'known' but parents just took the looked after twin to appointments, the twins were not seen together in the same room.

[marriedinwhiteisbackz]

The big problem is Lisad they don't actually tell you that you can decline the visit if you don't want it and that is disingenuous and downright dishonest. The other big problem is that every other bit of the health service I use, I can ask questions about before I use it and decide if I want to use it or if I can purchase a better service privately. I did not have that opportunity re the health visitor and had I been able to ask questions about the role the level of qualifications and the level of experience I would have declined before the start because I would have engaged someone more qualified and more professional to provide the information and support the daft little bint was incapable both practically and intellectually of providing.

"well you immunisation is a good idea because that's what it says in the leaftlet" I did immunise but not on the basis of a propaganda driven leaflet I needed to discuss with someone who understood the issues, the research, the benefits, the risks. Not a disinterested little airhead who could read a leaflet. I can read a leaflet thank you. The information was inadequate and I needed advice from somebody who could provide accurate information related to evidence based research. The moron I had referred me to the asthma specialist to discuss my son's breathing difficulties. Because I asked about the link between allergies and early triple vac. My son didn't have breathing difficulties. I actually saw the letter when I insisted on seeing the notes.

[MurderOfBanshees]

married Mine actually told me it was required that I see her when I asked

[SeaSickSal]

Friday it has been reported that Tracey Connelly has been assessed as no longer a risk to the public so it is expected that she is going to be released.

It has also been reported that she's had contact with her children whilst in jail so presumably will be seeing them when out.

I find it repulsive that she is still allowed to see them.

[SeaSickSal]

And my HV was excellent.

It shouldn't just fall on the shoulder of HVs though. Hamzah was not seen by his GP either. Their should be a mandatory requirement for an annual health check and it should be followed up if the child does not attend.

[friday16]

You dont need to be a professional to be able to tell if a child is looked after.

Actually, one might argue it helps not to be a professional. Look at the Connelley case. Strip out what we know now (that there were multiple, violent men in the household, that Peter was being beaten, etc) and look at what social services knew at the time. A mother who had dogs that roamed free in the house leaving dogshit everywhere, who wasn't feeding a child who was regularly being seen in A&E, etc, the house full of rubbish, no regular eating, etc. Or in the Keanu Williams case that the child didn't have a bed, clothes or toys, was being shunted from house to house, that the mother was drinking heavily, etc.

Most of us would regard those scenarios as "not looked after". But in the world of optimism, they were "good enough parents". I'd argue that in their haste to disown bourgeois judgmentalism, the social workers in these cases accepted care for the children lower than they wanted for their own children, because they didn't see the children they were working with as quite as deserving as their own children. They were busier feeling terribly pleased with themselves and not judging people for having dogshit in every room than thinking "I don't want my child raised in a house full of shit; why is it OK for this child to be raised in a house full of shit?"

From the Birmingham LSCB response to the Williams SCR:

It is for professionals, regardless of their professional backgrounds to see the child ‘as if they were their own’ and ask themselves whether what they see and hear is acceptable to them and act accordingly.

That that needs to be said is pretty damning.

[marriedinwhiteisbackz]

So did mine murderofthebanshees and her boss and her bosses boss and I took it right up to the CEO of the local healthcare trust where it was confirmed they are statutorily obliged to offer the service but mothers are not obliged to accept it. Lovely how they chose to misrepresent it eh? And nobody so dishonest as the HV service is coming within spitting distance of my child.

I will add though that I pushed it all the way because I could and have a lawyer for a husband but was disgusted at the dishonesty and incompetence of the service.

[SeaSickSal]

I know it won't be a popular view on here but this woman had 8 children.

I think that if a family continues to have multiple children despite no support outside the state it should act as a red flag.

It seemed to be the same with Tracey Connelly, parents having children that they don't want and are not interested in purely because they are little walking money bags to them.

Hutton carried on claiming benefits relating to Hamzah after his death to spend on booze.

I know not all large families on benefits are abusive ones, or just having children for money. But it seems there's been so many cases where they are it's something worth monitoring.

[Lau126]

My hv was amazing and if not for her my sons cancer would not have been picked u in time as my gp on the other hand told me I was a paranoid first time mother!! I now have a very good and close relationship with my hv.. Not all hv are bad and/or useless IMO