to not pay full whack for this school trip?

[LazyGaga]

DCs' school has arranged an educational visit for KS2, priced at £12 per child with a suggested limit of £3 per child spending money. We have two dc in KS2, if we pay full price and give them £1 - £3 spending money it will come in at £26 - £30 (I know spending money isn't essential but I would feel a bit shit if my dc were watching everyone else pick something iut in the shop but had nothing for themselves). We have had loads to pay out in the last few weeks and quite frankly money is tight at the moment.

The form does state that it's a voluntary contribution but if 80% of the full cost isn't raised then the trip would be cancelled. We have always paid in full for every trip but AIBU to think we need to cut our cloth at the moment and pay a reduced contribution?

I ask this because I found out when dc3 was going in a trip last year that not all parents pay the full cost (part of the payment for a trip fell out of the envelope into her bag, I took it in the next day and the TA said "Oh we didn't like to say some money was missing because some parents choose not to pay the full amount".

This might sound wrong but the school has a tiny proportion of children on FSM and a large number of professional parents. It's got me thinking whether we've effectively been subsiding other parents who choose not to pay 100%, and whether I'm being tight for considering it this time when we have had a financially hard month?

[amistillsexy]

DuckToWater I have offered the use of my People Carrier to transport children on trips. Apparently that's not allowed due to Health and Safety. Interesting that it is allowed at your school

[amistillsexy]

That [Hmm] is aimed at my school, by the way, not at your post, Ducky. I think using parents to transport children around should be an option!

[DuckToWater]

They just get parents to tick a box saying they have appropriate insurance on the form. I suppose there are risks when you think about it, but none the school feels are too great, obviously!

[CrohnicallyLurking]

We used to just do one annual trip, usually somewhere both fun and educational like the zoo. However, one year, after listening to parents' complaints about the cost (yes, it is usually the coach that is the problem) we arranged for the children to have a fun day in school, there was a visit from an artist and an owl display amongst per things. The parents were asked to pay the princely sum of £1 per child.

We almost had to cancel because parents were refusing to pay on the grounds that 'it wasn't a trip'. They just couldn't seem to understand that any sort of trip was going to cost at least £10 per child just for the transport, and we were listening to their concerns about cost, this was the only alternative.

We do things in the local area like going for walks to look at local churches, however these don't count as 'trips' in the parents' book either, and we struggle to get enough adults to accompany the children (strangely enough there are plenty of parents volunteering for a free trip to the zoo. But not for a walk to the local church)

And to clarify, generally when you book a school trip there will be free adult places offered, and as you can't book a coach for the exact number of children you have anyway, the actual cost of adults going is negligible. Add in the unpaid overtime (I once did an 11 hour school trip on my usual pay of approx £50 for the day- that's nowhere near NMW, and of course contravenes working time regulations because I didn't get a break) and I think you have a bargain. If I was expected to pay for my place, I'd be at least expecting to earn overtime, which would cost the school more in the long run.

[amistillsexy]

CrohnicallyLurking I've arranged a visit to the seaside for all the children in your neighbourhood. All you have to pay is £10 each child, as the local children's trip society (that you give money to in various ways throughout the year, so they can collect enough 'funds') has generously offered to fund half the cost per child!. They'll get to do all sorts of fun and educational things. It's next Saturday, so can you please give me your voluntary contribution by next Tuesday at the latest.

Oh, if you don't voluntarily contribute, the trip will have to be cancelled and all the children in your street will be disappointed that they can't go. They are really looking forward to it, so please don't let us down
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What do you mean, you never asked for the trip? It's a bargain at £10 . You can surely afford to give £10 for such a great opportunity for your child, and why should the others suffer because you're too tight to pay up (etc etc, ad infinitum...)

[CrohnicallyLurking]

Ami- I get that parents might feel we're spending their money for them.

But a) we always give half a term (or thereabouts) notice.
B) we allow installments and make this clear on the letter, often asking specifically for a deposit rather than full amount.
C) when we made the decision not to have a trip because parents complained about the cost, the same parents then complained that their children weren't going on a trip! So basically they wanted the trip for free. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
D) I know a lot of parents complain about the other costs involved in a school. Our school tries to keep costs to a minimum. The only logoed items available are jumpers and book bags. Neither are compulsory, and the colours are readily available in any supermarket. The book bags are of sufficient quality to last R-Y6. PTA events occur out of school hours 3-4 times a year, and the most expensive is £2.50. Hence the PTA does not have spare funds to subsidise trips and events, they fundraise for specific items such as playground equipment.

[BrokenSunglasses]

OP, I don't know what makes you think I must be loaded with no understanding of your situation, my suggestion more than once has been that you pay over a longer period of time.

If £24 is hard for you to find this month, then ask if you can pay £12 this month and £12 next month.

I just don't think it's acceptable to allow your children to do things that you aren't willing to pay for. Asking to pay in instalments shows you are willing. Complaining that the school is asking too much and wondering if you should just not bother paying anything, or hoping you can get away with paying less than everyone else doesn't show that you are willing.

[BrokenSunglasses]

My issue with school trips is that they are spending money on my behalf, without consulting me first

You had the choice to opt out of all things related to state education before you enrolled your children in state education.

You have chosen to have three children. Three children is going to be expensive, that much is obvious. I think your opinion that schools should just stop offering these trips is incredibly selfish. Other families may have stopped at one or two children because they knew that over the course of their children's education they might not be able to afford more. But you think that their children should be denied educational opportunities because of the choice you made to have more children than them.

Don't you see how self centred that is?

The point has been made that children stand out from their class if they don't go on the trip, and it is known that schools don't run the trips if enough people, don't pay, so what does that tell you? It says to me that the majority want their children to go on these trips and are willing to pay for it.

It would be horrible for children if the majority of them had their experiences limited because of a selfish minority.

Schools in my experience are very understanding about parents finances, and are very open to accepting payments in instalments. Parents who A&E struggling should make use of that.

[amistillsexy]

Sorry, LazyGaga, for hijacking your thread but I just cannot let it lie!

I just don't think it's acceptable to allow your children to do things that you aren't willing to pay for.

Not if she asked for those things in the first place, no. But she didn't.

If you ask for a service that costs, you expect to pay for it, but even then, you have the right to say 'no' if you consider it out of your price range.

Why should anyone, in any circumstance, be expected to pay for a service which they haven't requested, and which isn't required, which they can't or don't want to pay for?

It's not about being given notice, or time to pay, it's about choice.

CrohnicallyLurking I can't speak for your parents. It sounds as if the school tried to please one set of parents, and in doing so, failed to please another set.

[amistillsexy]

You have chosen to have three children.

Ha. Ha. Ha. . Don't you just love people on Internet Forums making sweeping assumptions about others' lives?


You had the choice to opt out of all things related to state education before you enrolled your children in state education.

brokensunglasses, you do understand I'm making a political argument, don't you? If The State gave me the option to opt out of paying for things I don't want to use, I'd be a very happy mother of three indeed! Unfortunately, I've already paid for this, and because it cost me so dear, I must make use of what I've paid for.
That doesn't mean I'm going to accept everything that's thrown in with it without argument. If I did that, I would be a lemming, now wouldn't I?

[BrokenSunglasses]

No, it wouldn't make you a lemming, not when we are talking about something which is undoubtably beneficial for children.

And you do have the option of not making use of offers of school trips. Just writ to your school and ask that your children be excluded from any calculations they may make about the costings of school trips, because you will not be sending your children.

School trips are not compulsory. You are banging on about choice as if yours has been stolen from you, and it hasn't. You just don't want to be put in a position where you have to make a choice in the first place. But as your family isn't the only one that schools need to consider, then that's just tough.

Maybe you didn't actively choose to have three children, but you have them and they are your responsibility. That gives you the right to opt them out of trips you don't want them to go on, and that's entirely up to you. Just don't try and deny these opportunities to other children whose families are willing to pay.

[bearleftmonkeyright]

Broken sunglasses, I feel your whole argument is centred around the idea that parents who don't pay just cant be arsed. In the ops circumstances, I would not feel comfortable going into the school Secretary saying that I am up to my overdraft limit, cant pay, can you sort me out with a payment plan. They do not have time maybe to administer etc. Payment plans also put more pressure on those parents who really don't have the money. It is a voluntary payment. Your argument also does nothing to address the needs of the children involved. If it is a whole school trip who looks after those children and educates them for that day? A supply teacher? Education is still free at the point of delivery and school trips form part of that. So if a parent can't pay, who does? And what form of education do those children receive if they are not on the trip?

[kangarooshoes]

Isn't this what child benefit is for?

School is a complete BARGAIN compared to nursery, I'm still in shock at not paying £150/week...

If you want the trip, you pay. If you genuinely can't afford it, speak to the school, and find a way to pay.

[amistillsexy]

From this Dfe document

Voluntary Contributions

Nothing in legislation prevents a school governing body or local authority from asking for voluntary contributions for the benefit of the school or any school activities. However, if the activity cannot be funded without voluntary contributions, the governing body or head teacher should make this clear to parents at the outset. The governing body or head teacher must also make it clear to parents that there is no obligation to make any contribution.

It is important to note that no child should be excluded from an activity simply because his or her parents are unwilling or unable to pay. If insufficient voluntary contributions are raised to fund a visit, then it must be cancelled. Schools must make sure that they make this clear to parents. If a parent is unwilling or unable to pay, their child must still be given an equal chance to go on the visit. Schools should make it clear to parents at the outset what their policy for allocating places on school visits will be.

When making requests for voluntary contributions to the school funds, parents must not be made to feel pressurised into paying as it is voluntary and not compulsory. Schools should avoid sending colour coded letters to parents as a reminder to make payments into the school or maintenance funds. Schools should also ensure that direct debit or standing order mandates are not sent to parents when requesting for contributions.

[bearleftmonkeyright]

Clearly there are people who cannot think outside the prism of their own existence. School is not free childcare anymore than child benefit is for school trips. For many people it forms an integral part of their budget for essentials

[BrokenSunglasses]

My argument is not centred around an opinion that parents who don't pay can't be arsed, I have said more than one that I understand people's financial circumstances can make things very tight for them.

You say you wouldn't feel comfortable with having to go to the school and ask if you can spread the payment as if that's a good enough reason for schools not to offer trips.

Schools will find the time to administer this stuff because they clearly feel that trips are important and worth the effort. If parents really don't have the money, then that's unfortunate, but hopefully the school will be able to find the money from somewhere else to makeup for one or two children occasionally. If not, then as your C&P proves, they have no choice but to cancel the entire trip for all the children.

The answers to your other questions depend on each individual school. Perhaps next time you get a letter about a school trip that you need to pay for, you could try getting over your discomfort and asking your school?

[amistillsexy]

School is a complete BARGAIN compared to nursery, I'm still in shock at not paying £150/week...

Don't you realise that you've already paid for school? You've been paying all your working life for it!

this breaks down how much of your taxes goes to which area of the Benefits Bill (as they call it). It suggests that on an annual salary of only £15,000 over the course of a 43 year working life, the earner would have given £11663.75 towards education. You do the math!

[bearleftmonkeyright]

Brokensunglasses, my point was a general one but you seem to be assuming I am also a "non payer". I was merely putting myself in someone else's shoes and trying to widen the discussion. My discomfort is neither here nor there, or whether I have managed to pay for all school trips. The fact that you really cannot seem to fathom is that the contribution is voluntary. If the trip cannot go ahead in school time because of this then maybe parents could organize the trip themselves if they have the means to pay. Then the parents can stop arguing and actually focus on what is best for the children. Because all the children matter.

[kangarooshoes]

According to that, I'm paying £928/year towards education- nursery cost me that a month, and they EDUCATE him too! Over my working career, if I have 2 children, for fourteen years of education, I'm paying under £1500/year. Private school would be £4000/term...

Our school system is good value. If you want the 'extras' you pay.

I have been as broke as broke can be recently, but, honestly, this IS what child benefit is for, money for your children. If you can't afford it in one go, speak to the teachers. School trips need to be accounted for in your budgeting, IF you want your child to go on them. It's voluntary, so just say you don't want your child going on the trips.

[bearleftmonkeyright]

But the school system is not for your benefit, its for children, that is why all tax payers pay. You are not just paying for your children and the trips are not extra, they are part of the curriculum. So if a parent cant pay, who does? Child benefit is not the issue here.

[bearleftmonkeyright]

My point is, why should a child miss out, its not their fault

[kangarooshoes]

Children miss out due to parents making choices all the time.

If I can sort money for trips back before my income went up, believe me, anyone can. I know I can sound sanctimonious about this, but I do do without if my child needs something, or if I want them to have an opportunity.

There will be an option to pay in installments.

And perhaps put a pound in a jar every so often to save for this? (That's what I do, easy to raid when they only remember it has to be paid today, just as you're leaving the house...)

The fact that school trips happen during your child's school life can't have come as such a shock you never thought they'd feature in the budget? It's no different to including school shoes in the budget.

[amistillsexy]

School trips need to be accounted for in your budgeting

How much per year should I allocate, kangarooshoes? Because you just made my point for me...if it was a designated, pre-determined amount every year, that would be one thing, but it's not. Different schools have different policies and plans on this, but in some places there are trips, 'events' and 'wonderful opportunities' constantly, all of which require a 'voluntary contribution' of a few quid here, a few quid there, then the 'big trip' that needs a still larger contribution.

How is a parent supposed to 'budget' for such an unknown quantity, which is entirely out of their control?

If you want the 'extras' you pay. That's true, for extras such as music tuition. A trip to a church or a mosque to help illustrate a curriculum is not an 'extra', since it will be referred to and used during lessons. If it's part of the planned curriculum, then the school need to find it in their budget to pay for it, the same way they do when they buy books, and other resources to help them to deliver the curriculum. If the money isn't there in the school's budget, then they shouldn't plan for it.

I believe it would do the teachers in my children's school good, and it would be fun, for them to come on one of my courses for the day. It costs £150 a day per delegate, but I'll happily match-fund it for them. Would I be being unreasonable to send them their tickets, and a request to the school for £75 per teacher to attend? Bear in mind, they won't get the training of they don't all pay me...and some of them will really want to go on it when I tell them how much fun it is, and how it will help them in their work.

[amistillsexy]

You didn't have to, kangarooshoes. To quote from the dfe again

Schools must ensure that they inform parents on low incomes and in receipt of the benefits listed on page 4 of the advice of the support available to them when being asked for contributions towards the cost of school visits

Did your school do that? Mine doesn't.

[kangarooshoes]

Ask the school.

"In the next year, how much do you envisage I will need for trips?"

I asked on the show round how many trips there were (loads- about one per term) and how much contribution was required (usually about £5). Okay.

If the school can't/won't tell you, then moan about that. But don't just not pay "full whack" out of some sense of unfairness/entitlement.

The teachers probably frequently self fund courses/post grad qualifications that will help them in their work or are necessary. I bet few of them are fun. I don't think that's relevant.

Education is good value. Don't resent a bit extra paid here and there, because no one posting on mumsnet (by default has internet and a computer, and is therefore 'rich' in global terms) can't work out a way to pay £30, even in installments. Get a grip.