to not pay full whack for this school trip?

[LazyGaga]

DCs' school has arranged an educational visit for KS2, priced at £12 per child with a suggested limit of £3 per child spending money. We have two dc in KS2, if we pay full price and give them £1 - £3 spending money it will come in at £26 - £30 (I know spending money isn't essential but I would feel a bit shit if my dc were watching everyone else pick something iut in the shop but had nothing for themselves). We have had loads to pay out in the last few weeks and quite frankly money is tight at the moment.

The form does state that it's a voluntary contribution but if 80% of the full cost isn't raised then the trip would be cancelled. We have always paid in full for every trip but AIBU to think we need to cut our cloth at the moment and pay a reduced contribution?

I ask this because I found out when dc3 was going in a trip last year that not all parents pay the full cost (part of the payment for a trip fell out of the envelope into her bag, I took it in the next day and the TA said "Oh we didn't like to say some money was missing because some parents choose not to pay the full amount".

This might sound wrong but the school has a tiny proportion of children on FSM and a large number of professional parents. It's got me thinking whether we've effectively been subsiding other parents who choose not to pay 100%, and whether I'm being tight for considering it this time when we have had a financially hard month?

[Tavv]

If you seriously think you shouldn't pay in the "current economic climate" then at least raise this with the school, to give an equal chance to others on a similar income to yourself.

After all, everyone else will rightly be assuming any subsidy is for those who genuinely can't afford it.

[amistillsexy]

PTFA money comes from the families anyway, though, doesn't it?
We buy all those raffle tickets, bake the cakes then buy the one someone else bought, provide the toys to sell on the Christmas Fayre stall, then provide the cash for our DCs to but more back. we provide the prizes for the raffles, and pay for the tickets to the talent shows so we can watch our own DCs perform at the end of term.
We do all this, playing the game, to 'raise funds' which are used to subsidise our children's education, which we've already paid for through our taxes.

We are then expected to feel 'grateful' when the PTFA 'subsidise' the class trips to the museum, the zoo, wherever, and we are expected to pay the rest of the costs. Which is fine, except we never actually asked for these trips to be arranged in the first place, and some of us really, truly, don't have that amount of wiggle room in our budget. Yet we are told that this is a 'great experience' for our children, and made to feel bad if we don't cough up...the trip might not happen if not enough parents pay up, so it's 'not fair' on the other children.

The problem as I see it, is that there is no 'cap' on the amount a school can ask for from parents, so there is no way of budgeting for this. some families really are having to budget for every last pound, and a bill of up to £30 for a school day trip may be impossible to find. In my opinion, it is utterly unreasonable for schools to spend money on behalf of parents in this way.

I can't think of any other area of my life where someone spends money on my behalf an then tells me how much I need to pay them without my asking them to do so first. How would it be if, when you went through the supermarket checkout, the operator said 'I've just added a couple of bars of chocolate for the children. The Supermarket Friends association have paid 10p towards them, so all I need from you is 90p.'
That is exactly what is happening with school trips now. There is no choice, and it's the lack of choice that sticks in my throat.

Well, the law as it stands at the moment (no doubt about to be changed by Gove) states that schools may ask, but not insist on a contribution. If a parent doesn't wish, or is unable, to contribute, the child must not be penalised as a result, so if the trip goes ahead, they must be taken anyway, and school must fund the child (there are slight variations to this rule for overnight trips). It is not lawful for the school to add the cost for non-payers onto the costs for other children. If the school feels insufficient contributions have been made they may cancel the trip. In my opinion, if they find that not enough parents are willing to pay for a trip, that might be telling them something about how important the parents feel that particular 'experience' is for their children, or how much of a priority it is for them at the moment. They are exercising their democratic right to say 'no' to having their money spent for them, and I uphold that right.

OP, YANBU, for all the above reasons.

[LazyGaga]

BrokenSunglasses - yes I know schools in poorer areas receive more in pupil premium due to their demographic, however I'm referring to something set and priced by the PTFA. I just feel the perception of people involved may be skewed by their own circumstances and of those around them - to them £5.00 may not seem like much at all; when I'm paying it x3 it seems like quite a chunk of money.

Also re your last paragraph at 20:52 - what if those few parents are "complaining" because they are actually struggling to afford it, not about the "expectation that they pay for their own children"?

asandwichshort no, I'll make them take a couple of quid pocket money they get from my mum for the gift shop. That's fair enough. Also this is the only trip so far they've been allowed to take spending money.

I think several posters seem to missing the point that I have always paid in full for every trip my dc have been on. I didn't even realise until there was a chance comment made by a TA that some parents choose not to pay the full amount. I resent the implication that I regularly decide not to pay for my dc and let others make up the shortfall. I have been one of the ones paying full price every single time!

I am going to speak to the HT to ask if I can pay half this month and half next month.

[LazyGaga]

Cross post amistillsexy couldn't agree more. Couldn't say if you're still sexy but I like the cut of your jib .

[Viviennemary]

I always paid in full for all school trips even when the contributions were voluntary. Then I found out somebody with twins who had more money than anybody didn't pay.

[amistillsexy]

right back atcha, LazyGaga

[MistyB]

YANBU to pay a reduced amount for the trip if that is all you can afford at this time.

However, your child's TA was being discrete when she said 'some families choose not to pay the full amount'. She was simply saying that should you have chosen at that time not to pay the full amount, that was completely within your right. She was not telling you that there are lots of families that do this but simply that it is the school party line not to question, judge or make anything of it, should anyone choose to exercise their right not to pay the full amount.

[FreshLeticia]

In my opinion, there are far too many unecessary trips made, esp by coach. It is getting ridiculous really. Why not take the children on a walk, yes, a walk in the surrounding area to look at a) local history - buildings, graveyards, types of work; b) biology/natural history - ponds, canals, parks, forests, woods; c) geography same as b; d) culture - religious and community - mosques, synagogues, churches, shops and community centres which cater for e.g. indian asians, chinese asians, turkish, polish etc etc. Meet people from different cultures.
FGS, even here, in remote west Wales there are all of these things to do in our tiny one-horse town, e.g, engineering, nature, communities, churches, ancient monuments etc etc. There are so many more things to see in bigger towns and cities. Why a coach all the time? Why the zoo or a theme park or theatre? Have the schools no imagination or do trips have to have everything laid on so that the teachers don't actually have to prepare any lesson plans for them?

[LynetteScavo]

I try not to get worked up by this.

I know professional parents who have stood on the playground complaining because school has invited in a theater group and asked them to pay a few pounds to watch a show in the school hall. I think they did pay up, though (as that school would have kept children in the classrooms and let them miss the show )

I have, when I could afford it payed double when paying for trips, as I know some parents won't/can't send in money for trips. I don't want to start trying to second guess who can or won't pay, and I don't want trips cancelled because not enough families have contributed.

Today my DCs school had harvest festival. I sent in various items for the food bank. DD told me exactly who in her class gave in what. I was surprised only 5 children contributed (although it was the families I would have expected). I would be unsettled if only 5 families in her class could spare a packet of rice for those less fortunate. I'm hoping a lot were disorganised, or didn't bother reading the newsletter. I would be sad if 25 families just didn't care. It wouldn't make me think I could join them...money is tight for us, but I would still pay for school trips. I probably won't be buying the school photo, though.

[amistillsexy]

I agree, FreshLeticia. If we as a family can't afford to go out for the day to the zoo, we go somewhere cheaper, and closer to home.

If we decide to take the neighbour's kid with us, we don't go with the invite and ask for a 'Voluntary contribution', then pour on the guilt trip and say if they don't pay up, none of us can go .

[FreshLeticia]

For example we have a Hari Krishna community here who really welcome local schools and lately my DD's year have been doing Bible stories with a lady locally. They often go to local farms and the church or the mill or the castle or the woods. The woods have woodland skills such as chair-making and spoon-carving. The farms show lambing, shearing and milking. All within walking distance. We have a new and growing polish community here as well.
I would have loved to have been invited to one of the asian communities in my home town when i was a child, but unfortunately in those days...

[FreshLeticia]

I hasten to add that the Bible stories are part of a cultural education, they are not being indoctrinated.
Quite Amistillsexy, quite.

[LazyGaga]

MistyB I take your point.

FreshLeticia you have made a very good point there. Are you a teacher? If so, can you come to work at our school?

Lynette I have donated for Harvest every year, (as I say I've always put my hand in my pocket for every single damn thing that comes round). Poor show for only 1/6 of the families to send anything in.

Anyway I'll ask HT re two instalments and hopefully these awful last few weeks won't be repeated so this problem won't arise again in the near future.

Nobody mention Christmas .

[amistillsexy]

LynetteScavo The school is not acting lawfully in keeping some children in the classroom because their parents can't or won't pay for the event. They have to ensure that all children are given equal opportunities.

If you wish to make additional contributions to school funds, that is your own affair, but be aware that the school is required to educate all children within the confines of its own budget. If the budget isn't enough, the school should be lobbying Government, and asking parents to do so as well, not relying on 'top ups' from families' budgets.

The contributions to Harvest Festival are a different matter. That is a charitable donation, and a different set of moral arguments apply (quite happy to discuss them if you fancy starting a thread )

[ExitPursuedByADragon]

And the teachers go free

[missmarplestmarymead]

How appalling that some schools keep children back from watching a theatre show-I think that is cruel. after all, I imagine the theatre group has already been paid so why can't they watch-it is hardly little ones' fault.

[BrokenSunglasses]

to them £5.00 may not seem like much at all; when I'm paying it x3 it seems like quite a chunk of money

I appreciate that it's going to be a lot when you have three children. I have two at secondary and we will have to cut back to be able to afford their trips this coming year. But the choices I have are either pay up or don't allow them to go. If I couldn't find a way for them to go, then that would be down to me, I wouldn't be annoyed that the school has asked. Other children shouldn't be denied the opportunity because I don't have the money.

what if those few parents are "complaining" because they are actually struggling to afford it, not about the "expectation that they pay for their own children"?

Then the complaint wouldn't come across as if it was aimed at the school rather than at themselves or their situation. The school isn't doing anything wrong, they are doing a good thing.

[amistillsexy]

FreshLeticia Can I come and teach at your school as well? It sounds like an idyllic community!

Just for the record, I used to teach in a school in a very impoverished area. I took Y6 on a residential trip for a week every year (pre-DCs!), and the cost was heavily subsidised by...the Head Teacher (who paid outright for more than one child), myself and a few other members of staff. We didn't have a PTFA, as the families couldn't afford to give money away, so they wouldn't have made any money!

I remember going round the local businesses asking them to make cash donations, or to sponsor a child (un-named, of course). The final cost to parents would be as low as possible, and any child whose parents couldn't or wouldn't pay was taken anyway. None of the children knew who had paid what, and the school scrimped and saved all year to go.

[LynetteScavo]

amistillsexy (and others who have mentioned it) It was when DS1 was in reception that children were held back from watching a show - he is now in Y10, so maybe the law has changed, but it always seemed rather wrong to me. It was an old fashioned school in a naice area, with probably almost zero free school meals.

[clam]

"do trips have to have everything laid on so that the teachers don't actually have to prepare any lesson plans for them?"

Oh ffs! Seriously? Have you any IDEA of the amount of work involved in running a school trip?

And as for "And the teachers go free" What, so you think they should bust a gut in organising a fun and educational experience for YOUR CHILD, and yet be out of pocket for it?

Oh yes, I forgot. It's kick the teaching profession week at the moment isn't it.
I don't know why we fucking bother.

[BrianTheMole]

I don't think YABU op. If you normally pay in full, but you can't afford to this time, then talk to the teacher or whoevers organising it about paying less. (ps not read the whole thread so apologies if its moved on).

[amistillsexy]

BrokenSunglasses You say that other children shouldn't be denied an opportunity because you don't have the money, but the number of 'opportunities' we can offer is infinite. They could be having an expensive 'experience' every day. Where does it stop? How many 'opportunities' should the school be offering, and who is to say that those opportunities are any better than any others?

I am not disputing that children enjoy trips, and events in school (I bent over backwards to get those for the children I taught), but how many is too many? What's your cut-off point? At what point do parents say 'enough's enough' and stop paying out.

My point is that we need to be given a choice about how we spend our money, and to say 'pay up or your children have to sit out while everyone else has fun', or 'pay up or everyone will miss out on the fun because you're too poor/tight to pay' is Hobson's Choice, and I'm not accepting it.

[Daddypigsgusset]

At dds school, the pta pay for everyone to go on the trips then send a letter with a suggested contribution emphasising that paying is not compulsory and all children will go regardless of whether or not their patents are able to pay. I don't know how many pay the full amount or some or none at all but I am all the more grateful for this way of doing it after reading others' posts

[amistillsexy]

Daddypigsgusset Your school obviously read the bit in the guidance where it says the children mustn't be penalised in any way! I bet they get more coming in with that approach than the 'we'll cancel if not everyone pays' letters!

[FreshLeticia]

No, I'm not a teacher, I'm an ecological science bod .
But I have had both our local primary and our scouts group to our smallholding to do nature identification. Trees, plants and birds, riverbank, hedges and haymeadows. There are plenty of people who will do that sort of thing for their local school. My DCs have all walked to the local not working now flour mill, the churchyard, the old school, the castle ruins, a big farm and my little bit of land. Our primary school trip in the summer is usually local beach, picnic, games on the sand and chips on the way home. No entry fees involved.
In senior they do go up to Cardiff to theatre and rugby, but not too often.

When I lived in a northern city years ago it was in an asian area and was a wonderful place to live. I made so many friends and really enjoyed getting to grips with how it worked.
My only regret is that although this area is quite multicultural in that many races and cultures have moved here and there are many mixed families, there are not any really different cultural areas IYSWIM. It is very mixed up together so the cultural differences are quite diluted. I think my DCs would be astounded if they went to Brum or Leeds and saw that the communities were so separate.