To not apologise to dsis who is pregnant?

[waltermittymissus]

Dsis has married a nice enough man from Turkey.

I say nice enough as I don't really know him nor does she and there's a language barrier to prevent any major communication.

She has fallen pregnant after believing until fairly recently that she can't conceive. This is obviously brilliant! I'm thrilled for her.

However, she's having a boy and although she says he won't be raised as Muslim she is having him circumcised.

She knows nothing about it save that that's what her dh wants. I don't agree with it and while I know it's none of my business, she was asking opinions the other day and I told her my honest views.

It wasn't an argument but the conversation did turn a little heated resulting in her storming out.

My mother wants me to apologise, not because I was horrible or anything but because she's pregnant.

I'm not apologising because a) she asked for opinions and then got really defensive b) she's pregnant not sick and c) those are my views. I'm not sorry for them.

So, AIBU?

[Vivacia]

Seriously - circumcision these days is nothing major.

No man would be fondling my son's penis, let alone cutting the skin off, due to someone else's religious belief.

[Tasmania]

Seriously - circumcision these days is nothing major. Catholics often get circumcised, too, which was ONE reason my mum wanted it for my brother. Dad didn't really think it was necessary.

At the end of the day, the decision was taken out of their hands, and he had to be circumcised for medical reasons aged 5.

I even attended the operation (weird, but bro wanted me there). In the hands of an able surgeon, it's not a big deal.

[CoteDAzur]

I'm a bit late to the party here but here it goes:

Kurdish, under-educated, rural - these are not hopeful signs but they don't mean that your BIL is a horrible evil person and that this marriage is dead in the water.

Your DSis is pregnant for the first time and needs support. If you have any valid reasons (other than "He might want to go back") why you think this future baby will be kidnapped while in Turkey for his circumcision years from now, then slowly prepare for that day. Cooperate with your sister to make sure that never happens.

What I see on this thread is that you have been judgemental about their choice to circumcise their future son, had a tantrum about a matter that frankly is none of your business, got all paranoid that your future nephew will be kidnapped years from now, and nearly fell out with your sister.

I'm sure you think you are justified in these actions, but do try to see it from your sister's point of view.

I wouldn't have married this man, based only on his background, but your DSis has and you need to back off and give their marriage a chance. Meanwhile, support your DSis and help her steer her marriage in the right direction, if at all possible.

[waltermittymissus]

Thank you Vivacia. So do I!

[Vivacia]

Well done Walter, I'm so pleased you've made contact. Just keep that bond and don't let this bully get I between you and your sister and nephew.

I really hope your sister realises how cruel and ridiculous this circumcision would be once she holds her son.

[waltermittymissus]

Yes I absolutely do. But I'm very aware that it will just push her further towards him.

[hermioneweasley]

It must be so frustrating. It's so obvious to us that he's controlling and wildly unsuitable, you must want to shake her to make her see it!

[BlingBang]

Can't belive how naive she has been but it's done. I really think you should let the circumcision thing go. It's not that big a deal and many, many folk see it as completely normal, to her husband it is and to call it barbaric is quite an insult to him and his family and could really alienate him and with that you sisiter when she might need you most. She possibly has much bigger problems and I think you should not ruffle any feathers over this so you can be there to support her and influence her if she really needs your help in the future. I think you really need to pick your battles here.

[YourHandInMyHand]

Glad you managed to talk to her in person.

All you need to say to others is that you have apologised and want to be there for her and enjoy your new nephew when he arrives - it's true and supportive and draws a line under her getting upset with you for speaking your mind.

Try to just be there for her. When she holds her little baby boy she may very well change her mind about having him circumcised.

If this was my sister I'd be telling her I would always be there for her no matter what. It sounds like she is under a lot of pressure from him and the going no contact with you all for a bit there sounds more like his influence than her decision to me.

[waltermittymissus]

Thanks Tension

I feel really uneasy but at least she's speaking to me!

[TensionWheelsCoolHeels]

Walter I think you really have the measure of this situation and the BIL. I'm really glad you got to speak to her face to face, not with BIL acting as your SIL's keeper. I think if you can maintain that somehow then your SIL has a better chance of eventually seeing the light/standing up for herself when she really needs to.

[waltermittymissus]

Literally just back in my car. She works a couple of minutes from dc school so I nabbed her on the way in!

She couldn't talk for long and was already about 15 mins late from our chat so I didn't get into anything too heavy.

As soon as I saw her she burst into tears then I just felt awful, and yes, I apologised profusely because I'd rather be a hypocrite and have her safe tbh.

I asked what was going on with her, she said she's overwhelmed with everything so I asked with what and she said "I can't handle anymore pressure over this, I just want to enjoy my baby".

Now, maybe I'm being paranoid but I don't think she's really had any pressure from us and can't help but wonder where else it's coming from.

There was a giant alarm bell ringing for me because when I said that nobody meant to pressure her, and we all just wanted what was best for her and dn, she said "well everytime one of you says something like that, it's me who has to deal with the shit afterwards". That's not good is it?

I walked her into work where her manager (who is lovely) sat her down with a cup of tea. I asked did she want to come home but she said she'd rather stay there.

I told her I wouldn't say anything about it again and just asked her to keep in touch. The she asked me not to say anything to anybody but I really think I should!

I feel like fucking punching him to be frank. But then, I haven't really helped either so I'm just as bad.

[cjel]

Morning, are you going to try and see her today?x

[Vivacia]

Absolutely, just challenging the idea that academia and culture, in one of our most ancient civilisations, means that it's westernised.

[Wibblypiglikesbananas]

Vivacia - simply meant to illustrate that the whole country can't be judged by the actions/behaviour of one man who appears to originate from a more rural (and hence traditional) area.

[Vivacia]

extremely westernised, have excellent universities, cultural scenes etc

I get what people are saying about cultural differences, but to say that having academia and a rich culture is a result of being westernised seems fairly ironic in this context.

[waltermittymissus]

Thank you Alans

[AlansCatalanCat]

Yes, I just mentioned it in case there are any variations in the law.

[waltermittymissus]

YY we're in Ireland though I'm sure the laws are similar if not the same.

They married in Turkey so he has a spousal visa AFAIK. However, in order to stay here it must be registered here and as yet, to my knowledge, that hasn't happened.

Maybe that's been the plan all along and she's not willing to tell us.

I love my sister but she has issues with jealousy, self-esteem and, in all honesty, basic bloody common sense sometimes!

I'm very worried but then, I have been from the start.

[AlansCatalanCat]

They are in Ireland, not UK.

[Wibblypiglikesbananas]

I think the most important thing to ascertain here is whether the baby has a passport and can actually be taken overseas. Equally, what is the DP's immigration status? Surely he'll have to leave the UK once his visa runs out? There used to be a loophole whereby it was possible to get married on a tourist visa (10 years ago - I know someone who did it) but not sure if this exists now? If it doesn't, married or not, he won't be able to stay (and personally, I'd be questionning the legality of the 'marriage' in the first place).

Whilst I absolutely don't agree with the way the sister is being treated by her partner, if he has been brought up in the culture described here, in a very (by our standards) backwards village, he won't see anything wrong with how he's behaving. TBH, your sister has been ridiculously naive and needs to realise that if the baby does go to Turkey, there's a high chance he won't come back.

Having travelled extensively in Turkey, I'd also like to add that there is a huge difference between the city and the countryside. Cities like Izmir, Ankara, Istanbul and so on are extremely westernised, have excellent universities, cultural scenes etc. However, the further east you go, certain areas can be like taking a step back in time and understandably, the level of support and intervention in the event of a crisis (ie a child needing to be found) will just not be there. There was an article in The Guardian magazine yesterday about parents abducting their own children - often the father and often the child being taken to a country whereby the father had more rights than the mother. Some of the cases were heart breaking. Your sister would do well to read it. She needs shocking out of her inertia.

[waltermittymissus]

She has said that she won't move but not terribly convincingly!

Also, once they got there with my nephew, whose to say what would happen?!

He said he wanted to learn English and I found out our local library had lots of courses etc for this. He hasn't gone to one. Not one. They're free!

She met him on a holiday with her friends and then went back a couple of times. Next thing, they're engaged. Sometimes even she can't understand what he's saying.

She would 100% be able to move in with mum and dad or any one of us. I'd take her in in a heartbeat!

I haven't seen his village or where he lives but dsis who would be closest to her was there and she was quite taken aback by it but then, she's a creature of comfort and in all honesty, I don't think it's fair to judge too harshly when standards are just not the same!

[YourHandInMyHand]

Seconding the Kurdish compared with Turkish view that hermoine mentioned, I posted about my stepmum's ex husband further up thread and he was actually Kurdish.

If this was my sister I'd be very worried for her.

[ukatlast]

I think your Mother should have her and baby's passport to prevent her being removed from UK against her will.
Make sure she knows she can leave him at any point - presumably they can move back in with your Mum?
I am at a loss as to why someone would seek a partner over the internet like this and it blunts my sympathy for your sister somewhat. It doesn't mean she doesn't need protection from him though..she likely does.

[dedado]

Just thinking aloud, but his disinterest in learning English or getting a visa must be a concern for you all. Do you know if any family or friends have spoken to your sister about her views on possibly living in Turkey? I assume that she'll get a true picture of what it'd be like if she visits as a wife and mother rather than just a girlfriend. Hopefully once the baby arrives she'll get a good dose of protective mama bear hormones and become more assertive about her child.