DP, EXH and Christmas

[NachoAddict]

This could be long and I am in work so I may not reply quickly so I will put in as much as I can to cover any questions...

EXH and I seperated almost 3 years ago just before christmas. This coming christmas will be the forth since we split. We were together seven years but it was a stormy relationship due to domestic violence from him to me. Regardless the state of our relationship at the time we always managed to spend christmas together with the kids, including the first one after we split.

I moved DP in with us very quickly so the second christmas after EXH and I seperated DP was there. He refused point blank to let EXH come round on christmas day as it was the first time he had had his DD overnight on christmas eve. This caused a lot of problems between EXH and I, he was not happy that he didnt see the kids untill boxing day.

Last year EXH put his foot down and said since I had the kids the previous year he was taking them for dinner and over night. I still had christmas morning with them until 11am but the rest of the day was terrible for me. I missed them so much. we also only had DSD for an hour or two last year.

This year EXH has said that he would like to come round on christmas morning and watch the kids open their presents and spend an hour or two with them before leaving us to get on with the day.

I don't think that is unreasonable, I think the kids would love it (8 & 5) and that as grown ups we should be able to manage a couple of hours in each others company for their sake.

We don't know when we will be having DSD this year as her mum hasn't decided yet.

I have spent lots of time with DP's ex for the sake of keeping relations easy. we have many times eaten a meal together at MILs etc.

Would I be unreasonable to expect DP to allow EXH a couple of hours with his kids on christmas morning?

[Inertia]

Nacho , I'm so sorry your Ex has started to be such an arse, but I'm so relieved that you have finally been able to see his true colours.

How did the threat of violence manifest itself? To be honest I don't think you can say that he wouldn't hit DP, because he has a history of violent attacks on other people. Personally I would contact the DV police unit local to you to get the threat logged and explain what the situation is, and that you fear a violent attack on you or DP due to Ex's threats.

As previous posters have said, your Ex isn't bothered about the joy of opening presents with the children on Christmas morning, because he would have jumped at your offer of letting the children stay with him. He wants to 'prove' that he's the big man by making you jump to his bidding and forcing your DP out of his own home. You have a child with DP - you may feel that your older children are not at risk, but can you guarantee that your baby is safe if you let Ex into your home? Your DP clearly doesn't think so.

All Ex is asking for is an hour with the children on Christmas morning - that's fine, you can meet him somewhere safe such as another relative's home at 11am, and he can give the children his presents then. He doesn't have any right whatsoever to come to your home first thing in the morning and force your DP out.

Please don't feel that you're stupid. You have been bullied for many years by a violent thug, and you've got into a mode of self preservation to protect you and the children from his violence. You don't have to allow him and his violent threats into your home.

[dreamingbohemian]

You are NOT stupid, you have been victimised by a horrible man who's still being a complete jerk. It takes time to come out of that.

Probably it's only been ok for the last 3 years because you have been appeasing him. It's a false sense of security really. And actually, if he's threatened your DP with violence then it's really not been all ok has it?

You don't need to drag the past up specifically. Just tell him that he cannot come over Christmas morning. You have offered a good compromise, that's what's on the table, he can take it or leave it. If he kicks off or threatens you or DP, go to the police. He has a history of DV so hopefully they will take it seriously.

I think you do need to put those boundaries in place now because it may take some time to kick in. Your DD may be his little angel now but someday she will be a teenager and talking back to him, will he still be so restrained?

But again, please do be careful. If you can get some professional advice on how to approach all this, that would probably be a good idea.

[Inertia]

And absolutely agree with getting everything in writing- email or text and save printed copies.

[NachoAddict]

Thanks for all of the advice. I am taking it in and absorbing it, it's a lot to think about and my head is spinning.

I will text him (don't have his email) and tell him that he can't come for christmas and take it from there.

Do you think he knows what he is doing or do you think he genuinley thinks he is doing what is best for his kids? Basically is he abusive on purpose?

[NachoAddict]

Inertia I rang him to ask when he wanted the children over christmas and we are going out for dinner and I needed to book the table.

He had the kids last year for lunch and over christmas night so I thought he was going to say he wanted them christmas eve until christmas lunch.

He said I will have them boxing day but I want to come on christmas morning to see them open their presents. I said I will have to talk it over with DP. He started ranting, he better not try and stop me or I will come round there and knock him out, it's because of him I missed them the first year, I will never forget that he's lucky I didn't kill him.
They're my kids I should be able to see them on christmas day, it broke my heart lying to them (he told them he was at work that year) I'm not having it again. I will tell them that DP won't let me come round.

I just kind of stuttered yes I agree you should be allowed to see them. I will ring you later.

[Bogeyface]

I think that he is doing it not to see the kids but because you are saying no. I am sure that when he first mentioned it it was to see them, but he expected you to say "Yes dear, whatever you want" and when you didnt it ceased to be about them and became about him.

There is nothing you can say that will be right now, because what he wants is for you to be put in your place and do as you are told. It could be about anything, Xmas with the kids is just the excuse he is using to wield his power over you.

Have you ever watched Labyrinth? You know the bit at the end where the girl says to David Bowie's character "you have no power over me!" and his world falls to pieces? Thats what you need to do. He is controlling you because you are letting him. He has NO power over you and he knows that.

Say no and be prepared for the fall out but, and this is the important bit, do not accept it. If he threatens you, call the police. If he threatens your DP, call the police. If he turns up or calls or texts you being abusive and threatening then call the police.

He has no right to behave like this and you have every right to stop him.

[Bogeyface]

Your post above makes me think that you should not communicate with him by phone. He rail roads you and bullies you.

Never ring him, never take his calls. Communicate only by text and if you can, forward the messages to another phone so you have copies in case your phone breaks or you lose it.

[Inertia]

Yes he is abusive on purpose. He has a record of violent attacks on women who won't do what he says- yet I bet he's never hit his boss at work, or any burly drunk blokes who might offend him in the pub, or anyone who might actually do him any damage.

If he wanted to even see the children- never mind want what's best for them, which isn't necessarily the same- he would have taken them for Christmas Eve.

He wants to hurt you. He wants to punish you for escaping. He wants to sabotage your relationship with DP and make hinself the alpha male (as Bogeyface says) in everybody's life- yours, the children's , your DP.

His only best interests are his own. And he still isn't safe if he is still threatening violence. Please do get proper professional advice to protect yourself.

[Bogeyface]

Interesting that he has threatened your DP but only actually attacks women. I agree that the chances of him going for your DP is actually quite slim, not because he has changed but because he is scared your DP will actually be the one doing the battering.

[Inertia]

Sorry , cross posted there.

Nacho my love, he is still bullying and threatening you- that phone call shows what he really is. Bogeyface is right, you need to go to written communication only. Don't take his calls.

[Inertia]

I think the threat against DP is actually intended as a threat against you Nacho- if you don't give in to Ex's demands he will get back at you by threatening to hurt the people you love.

[Dahlen]

You are NOT stupid. Nor are you weak. In fact, IME many victims of DV are quite the opposite of what the stereotype suggests. Far from being mousy, timid types they are strong, persistent types. That's part of the reason they stay. They have a high coping threshold and can adapt well to difficult circumstances, which is combined with a strong sense of responsibility towards others manifested as a desire to fix things: if I can just do x, he will do y.

It is hard. You're doing amazingly. The process of the scales falling away from your eyes is difficult. Everyone who has experienced it has a moment where they feel shame for not having seen the truth earlier. It's a normal part of the process and simply one stage in shifting perceptions. Eventually you realise you have nothing to be ashamed of. You are the same person but is your current DP treating you in the same way? No. That's because he's not an abuser. Only an abuser creates a situation in which abuse takes place. Never the victim. Though sadly we live in a society where it is the victim who has to make the decision that it will stop.

THat's what you're doing now. Feel proud of yourself.

[StuntGirl]

Listen to the very wise ladies on here love, they are worth listening to!

The best thing about all of this though is you know you have your partners support! So many people in abusive situation, or dealing with the vestiges of abuse, have little to no support network (because the abuser made sure they didn't!), BUT you have your partner. You have your own home. You get to call the shots, and he doesn't get to stop you.

Log every single interaction you have with him between now and Christmas. Everything. Keep all communication in writing, and if it's unavoidably spoken (ie over the phone, at pick up time) follow up with an email.

Speak to the police for advice. Get them to log it (get a reference number).

It might seem silly and overblown and over the top right now, and you might actually not ever need to go that far, but it will pay dividends if he does kick off or turn nasty.

[dreamingbohemian]

Oh god, that's horrible. A couple things:

If he makes a threat like that again, then I do think it's worth getting some advice from the police. He's not being ambiguous at all is he?

He can tell the kids whatever he wants. Take away that threat by talking to the kids yourselves and telling them it's a joint decision between you and DP.

I don't think he's thinking in terms of what's best for the kids. I doubt he's capable of putting himself in anyone else's shoes for a minute. He just sees them as belonging to him and he gets what he wants. It's a control thing. So yes, he is abusive on purpose. He has obviously constructed a whole internal dialogue that tells him he isn't, but of course he is.

[NachoAddict]

You are indeed wise, wise women. From a few posts on the internet you seem to have unravelled my life. It's bizarre. Are abusive men really so transparent?

It has been an eye opener and I think it is time I stood up to him. He is not my friend and I don't need to keep him happy and this is the first time I have truly realised that.

I need to do what is best for my family and that does not mean doing what he wants. I still feel a bit sick thinking of defying him and what is going to happen next but I think I can do it. I am going to re-read your posts tonight at home and compose a text that says very clearly that he is not to arrive on christmas morning because I don't want him to and I won't feel comfortable. I will offer two alternatives, christmas eve over night or we will drop the children off at his for a couple of hours before lunch. Then if he tries to negotiate I will just repeat the two options.

I am full of what I will do now... I just hope I can stay strong enough to see it through.

I am listening to all the other advice too, what kind of professional advice should I seek, a solicitor?

[Bogeyface]

Are abusive men really so transparent?

Pretty much. They think that they are unique and so much cleverer than every one else when the sad reality is that they are all the same.

I really would think twice about offering him the "before lunch" option as you have already told him that you are booking a table for Xmas dinner. He could use that as a way of getting back at you, not returning them or allowing you to collect them until it is far too late. Yes it would affect and upset the kids, but when did he care about that?

I do think that yes, a solicitor would be a good start but also Womens Aid. Have you ever had any counselling or support throughout this? It sounds like you need it. Also, I think that the Freedom Program would be good for you, to help you escape this mindset. www.freedomprogramme.co.uk/index.php

[dreamingbohemian]

I think that's a good idea, just be careful (sorry to keep saying that but I am worried for you).

I think it's okay to negotiate a little bit, for example if he says no but I'll have them christmas evening then that's fine (if it is fine for you). The key thing before contacting him is to figure out what your red lines are, and those are the things that you will not negotiate. For example, he is not to spend time in your house, there will be no contact before X am, or whatever you feel very strongly about.

If he won't agree and just insists on coming over, then I think perhaps just say that as you are not able to come to an agreement yourselves, it would be best to contact a solicitor and draw up a legal arrangement for contact, that way you don't have to argue every year about it.

I would be surprised if you manage to get through all this without him making some threats, so if he does, then call the police. Just keep reminding yourself that he no legal right to anything he is demanding.

On professional advice, perhaps Women's Aid has some guidance on arranging contact with an abusive ex. Solicitor for arranging contact, police if any more threats.

[dreamingbohemian]

My other worry is that even if he agrees not to come in the morning, he may show up anyway. So you should have a plan for that.

Although if he continues to threaten you then you may end up being able to get some kind of restraining order in place. I really hope for your sake it doesn't come to that.

I imagine what he's thinking is: I'm their dad, I have the right to see them open their presents on christmas morning. But he's not getting the fact that divorce changes all that. He needs to move on and recognise the new reality, the one that he himself caused by being such a dick. You are not denying him something that he has a right to. You are moving on and putting some proper boundaries in place, and you have every right to do that.

[NachoAddict]

No I've never had any counselling, I didn't think I needed it, I just carried on with my life and put my traumatised kids back together. I didn't even miss a day of work. The day we split I got out of hopital having my head glues back together at 9pm, straightened my house, and went to work the next day. I think I took the ostrich approach.

I don't feel angry or haterd towards him. Is that odd?

Oh yes, good thinking about the before lunch thing. I will say after lunch!

Thank you again so much for all the advice, it is very helpful. I can't believe the change my thread took. I honestly believed when writing my first post that I was right. I feel like I am thinking clearly at last. Thank you.

[Bogeyface]

What gets me is that they wont even be opening the presents from him!

Where is the attraction in seeing them open presents from your ex and her new DP?! Thats what makes me think that this has sod all to do with actually seeing the children and is just another stick to beat the OP with.

[Squitten]

I really hope you stick to your guns OP.

From what I can see, he is simply determined to bully his way into your life so that you are reminded of your place. He also seems intent on marking his territory where your DP is concerned. He's like a dog, pissing all over your sofa so everyone knows who the Alpha is. It's pathetic when you think about it!

You are absolutely right. He has NO RIGHT to being in your home, no matter what day it is. He has NO RIGHT to watch your kids open any gifts in your home. He has NO RIGHT to threaten you and your poor DP.

What's the worst he can do? Phone you and shout more abuse at you?
Hang up the phone. Send you abusive messages? Delete them. Come around and hammer on your door? Call the police.

He can't do anything to you other than what you allow your fear of him to dictate. I really hope you can throw off the shackles and start living you life!

[StuntGirl]

You sound very strong and determined nacho, that's good! And don't worry if you wake up tomorrow feeling wobbly and like you've made a huge drama our of nothing - that kind of emotional yoyo-ing is perfectly normal. What's important though is that you remind yourself why you're doing this so you can stick to your plan.

[Inertia]

Just one last thing that strikes me Nacho - once you've had chance to think about the best way forward, talk to your DP. He might have some ideas about how to make plans for the day and how to support you and the children.

[MistressDeeCee]

I read this thread much earlier & am so glad it changed from all the initials your DP is being unreasonable, needs to grow up etc.

Your DP would have to be a very strange man to be happy with his partner's violent ex - who'd given her a good kicking several times in the past - sitting in his home playing happy families. That kind of anything annoys decent men.

Your ex is taking the piss out of you, your DP, your relationship, & needs to fuck off. What was it going to be next? *I want to be there for their birthdays - parents evenings - all special events. Manipulative control freak who would happily play you & the kids like a fiddle, being in your face as much as possible so you're uncomfortable,& sidelining your DP into feeling like Mr Nobody.

If its safe the kids can go to him. Or you work out some kind of supervision, contact centre etc. He doesn't need to be in your home - ever. Good luck and I hope all gets sorted out.

[NotActuallyAMum]