To worry about the Judges attitude in Levelle Verdict.

[daiseehope]

I believe I need to state that this man has been found not guilty of all charges etc. I am an abuse victim who is taking a case to court. AIBU as apparently the Judge stated to the Jury prior to deciding that the sic "manner and appearance of the alleged victim and how she appears to you is vital". I don't think that's right.

[friday16]

"So you don't believe any men should be convicted of rape MinesAPint? As in the majority of cases that's one person's word against anothers and consent is what's disputed?"

However, there's often evidence that sex took place, and as you say, the case then becomes about consent. And although obviously evidence of violence, or force is not a necessary part of that (as we aren't living in 1973), it is nonetheless part of many trials. That's not the case here, where there's no evidence that sex of any sort took place other than the testimony of one person. Given the girl's age at the time of the alleged offences, consent wouldn't have been relevant, so forensic evidence would have been pretty much probative.

None of us were in court, so all the things that can't be reported mean we know very little about the case. Presumably there's evidence as to how he had access to her, as a child, over a period of some time. For those of us watching from the sidelines, I'm not sure how much evidence there was that actually shows that the alleged victim and the alleged perpetrator of the alleged crimes were ever in the same postcode.

The thing that jumps out at me is:

"The allegations emerged in September 2011 after she and her mother attended a motivational talk by a woman who herself claimed to have been raped as a child."

"Recovered memory" cases have a terrible history, and juries are today very, very reluctant to convict on such evidence.

[HavantGuard]

I have no idea if this girl was telling the truth. I will say that in rape cases the main defence is to attack the victim. Imagine every word you've ever spoken in your life being dragged up. Comments without context. People you cut out of your life years ago popping up with things you may have said.

[BeCool]

Leopoldina I read what you are quoting. It doesn't clarify anything to me.

A rape victim could surely have heard a motivational speaker who had also been raped, and used that positive example as a way to turn her life around rather than dwell on what happened to her? She could have been inspired to follow her dreams despite her attack, rather than be held back by it? To her relative who did know know she had been (allegedly) rapes, it may have seemed "weird" - so what?

Are child sexual assault victims really expected to be able to recall every detail and date of incidents that happened many years earlier to be believed?

[comingalongnicely]

Not Guilty - that's the end of it, even for the elite team of MumsNet Legal Experts that have all come crawling out of the woodwork.

Maybe the poor bloke start picking up what little pieces of his life the media have left him....

[WafflyVersatile]

One would only presume that if one had a completely unrealistic view of the law.

A not guilty verdict means that the prosecution failed to convince the jury beyond reasonable doubt that he was guilty. That's all.

It does not automatically mean that the person who made the allegation was lying.

You would be an arse to presume anything.

[Onesleeptillwembley]

I believe he was innocent. I also believe the girl THINKS she is telling the truth. However, that is my opinion, I wasn't there, wasn't in court and don't have the full facts. Either way, I don't think she is a
'Vindictive little madam'. I think she is as much a victim as he is.

[HoldMeCloserTonyDanza]

Leo, if you are trying to imply that the girl made the allegations because she wants money or fame you are barking entirely up the wrong tree.

If she wanted money or fame, having Le Vell imprisoned for rape would not in any way help her.

[HavantGuard]

Sometimes news coverage or a storyline in a soap lead to people reporting historic abuse. I don't know about this particular girl. I am stunned by the number of people who don't seem to know anything about how the system works and seem to assume that a not guilty verdict equals a lying victim. It does give an insight into the misperception that a high percentage of rape complaints are false. No wonder people think that if they think that no conviction means no crime.

[LegoAcupuncture]

My BIL had serious (similar) allegations made against him in the early 1980s. It went to court and he was proven innocent. Yet even though prove innocent his life was ruined, still is almost 30 years later.

He cannot go out in his home town, he had to move away. When he visits he doesn't go shopping at the local shops, he can't go drink at the local pub in case someone who knows him is there. I've had people come up to me and ask me if I ever leave my DC alone with their uncle and if I'm glad that I don't have and daughters as it must be scary having someone like him for a BIL.

An innocent/not guilty does not always bring reprieve because some people will always think bad.

[MinesAPintOfTea]

HavantGuard What do you suggest we do instead? How would you like the legal system to treat people accused of rape and their victims?

You seem to think those of us who thing this would be hard to convict against want men who have raped to be left to walk the streets free, not that we can't see how to find guilty whilst maintaining the same burden of proof.

[WafflyVersatile]

Even if he had been found guilty all we would know is that the prosecution successfully convinced the jury that he was guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

[HavantGuard]

The current law allows for people to be convicted on the word of one person. It's not the law that's at fault, it's people like you.

[cantspel]

Le Vell has not attacked his accuser in court though . All along he has stated he is innocent and he has no idea of why she is accusing him of rape. No personal attacks on her or her mother so he didn't try to discredit them to boost his defence.

[limitedperiodonly]

Okay bowlersarm. A woman might genuinely believe she didn't give consent and a man might equally genuinely believe that she did, or at least didn't make her objection clear enough for him to stop.

Both would be telling the truth. Only if the man could be shown beyond reasonable doubt he was raping the woman, would he be guilty.

That's what makes rape convictions so hard to come by, because juries are reluctant to convict of such a serious crime, someone who got what are called mixed signals.

It's a defence barrister's job to play up mixed signals.

That's not a judgement btw. It's a fact.

I find it interesting that juries often don't have such problems deciding about other messy human relations that aren't about sex.

There's a high-profile case going on atm about a date gone wrong where the man grabbed the woman's phone because she wouldn't stump up half the bar bill. He was charged with theft.

I genuinely couldn't decide whether he was guilty of it or not because I wasn't in court.

You've reminded me to look it up because I'll be interested at the outcome and will probably post it on here.

[FlapJackFlossie]

the man grabbed the woman's phone because she wouldn't stump up half the bar bill. He was charged with theft.

He's been cleared of all charges.

[FlapJackFlossie]

the man grabbed the woman's phone because she wouldn't stump up half the bar bill. He was charged with theft.

He's been cleared of all charges.

[MarmaladeTwatkins]

I didn't think he had tried to discredit, or even been vaguely spiteful, to the accuser or her mother, to be fair to him.

I don't think that I could say the same for myself if I was in court for something I hadn't done. I'd be discrediting like mad.

[HavantGuard]

If I testified that I saw someone steal £500 holiday money from a drawer in my house I don't think there would be the same doubt.

[celticclan]

We know very little about this case to speculate either way. There are some cases like the Becky Godden murder where Christopher Halliwell was acquitted because of a technicality and we all know he did it.

This case is different we know very little about the circumstances, we don't even know how they knew each other. It is wrong to say that we should automatically believe every rape allegation. It is very very rare for someone to make up an allegation of rape but it does happen.

[FannyMcNally]

Do they not have lie-detector tests any more? Could that 'prove' who was telling the truth? Ok, it might not work on the woman if she was lying but really thought it had happened but if MLV had one it would prove whether he was lying or not.

[Bowlersarm]

Thanks for that limited. It is such a grey area.

However in this case she was such a young age, that consent or not is not really the issue? It could only be rape, if he had sex with her. No grey area there at all.

[squoosh]

Lie detectors aren't used in British courts.

[HavantGuard]

He couldn't really go after the accuser hard in court. How would it look to a jury? A teenage victim of child abuse being bullied by an adult, reduced to tears? They wan't to paint her as disturbed, delusional and attention seeking not create sympathy for her. There may have been no raised voices but the defence wouldn't have been doing it's job if it hadn't tried to dismantle her credibility.

[Leopoldina]

holdmecloser what I'm implying is that this looks very much like a case of false memory syndrome. The line of questioning taken, the summing up and the judge's direction as well as the total absence of questioning on other issues strongly suggests it, and as someone else upthread said quite pithily, the reporting makes it "bonecrushingly obvious" who the complainant is. The picture appears that there is nobody who believes they are making false claims. That doesn't mean that there isn't an innocent man.