To ask trainee again to change her clothes

[badbelinda]

Thread inspired by recent headmistress and uniform thread. I work in a professional role that involves a lot of public interface and within that role I also mentor juniors. My current junior often wears smart jeans (usually black) and a year ago I told her I didn't think jeans were appropriate for our work setting and didn't give a very professional image. At that time she stopped wearing them for a while, changing to smart trousers which I thought was fine. She's recently started wearing jeans again and now also smart trainers. So AIBU to bring this up again? If you go to see a professional in any role, what would you think of them wearing jeans and trainers (albeit smart ones)? Am I just getting old?

[BeckAndCall]

If that's the rules, then that's the rules - just repeat 'no jeans, no trainers'.

I'm an accountant and I'd challenge the 'dress boringly' assumption above. I always wear a dress and a coloured jacket with coloured shoes to match. I don't think you have to look boring to look professional.

But my DD is doing work experience in a barristers chambers this summer and the rule is 'black trouser suit'. And that's it - just that, no wiggle room. Makes it easier to just concentrate on being a professional and you don't have to worry about how the client reacts to how you're dressed.

[BeckAndCall]

You realise of course, when I say 'coloured jacket and shoes' I'm talking burgundy, navy or sand coloured. Don't want you all picturing me in neon pink!

[Bertrude]

YANBU

I also second BeckAndCall on the office attire is boring concept. I have a very strict dress code (UAE Government office so no cleavage at all, sleeves down to wrists and no splits in skirts which have to be ankle length, or trousers) and very rarely do me or the other british girl dress 'boringly', although she does occasionally do dress in Neon Pink. I usually wear a black trouser suit with, say, a red blouse/camisole, red nail varnish and red shoes although not red anymore after Pervy Perverson passed comment in a meeting that red looked good on me, or black trousers, black top, multicoloured silk scarf and again bright shoes.

No grey suit, white shirt, flesh coloured tights and black sensibly-heeled shoes here!

[eretrew]

YANBU but I've noticed an increasing number of women who seem to be wearing black jeans instead of black trousers. I thinks its very scruffy though.

[SolidGoldBrass]

Actually, and this does matter: what are the clothing rules for your male employees? If they are allowed to wear black jeans and the female ones are not, then you have a bigger problem than your own personal taste being outraged.

[specialsubject]

makes no difference to her work performance, probably improves it if she is comfortable. I don't care if my doctor/receptionist/dentist wears jeans.

However she should do as she is told at work, or if she wants to change something about her work, go about it by raising it with management not just ignoring it.

[Beastofburden]

Well my view is that this may not be a disciplinary matter, as you are a small firm and dont have the rules in place. So it depends on whether, hand on heart, you think that it reduces her effecrtiveness with the client.

I would talk to her in the context of her professional development. I would say, I know you think these rules are not very rational, but client service can sometimes be irrational. If I send you out to deliver professional services to X (name a fairly formal client) and he tells me he would prefer to deal with someone more senior, how would you feel? Your brand as a professional is something you need to give more thought to. We don't have the client list for you to spend all your time with creative media types who are not bothered by jeans. Our client list is [insert sector here] and you have seen yourself how their senior management dress. You need to dress the same way as their deputy management if you want them to think you are worth £400 an hour.

[badbelinda]

As I said, none of my male colleagues would wear jeans so this isn't a sexism thing. I was really canvassing opinion as it's a big bug-bear for me but wasn't sure if I was being old fashioned and unreasonable. I don't wear a suite myself, or "shiny nylon trousers" but do think it's a step again to jeans. We also have students with us at times and am amazed at what they think is acceptable to wear (but only have them for 5wks at a time and not my direct responsibility so have tended to keep quiet).

[Beastofburden]

The thing is, she will be the first to whine when clients dont take her seriously.

[TheFarSide]

If there is a rule for everyone, then everyone should stick to it BUT there is the question of whether the rule is sensible.

How much evidence do we actually have that clients have a problem with certain types of dress? Has anyone lost business as a result of a staff member wearing jeans?

The gender thing may not be an issue here, but it is an issue. It's not that long since women weren't allowed to wear trousers at work.

[Beastofburden]

It's definitely a gender thing. Learning what to wear at work so people take you seriously is a non-trivial skill. It's not fair that men can wear any old crap, but to be fair, they mostly wear suits.

In Uni vacations, people turn up in their jeans and trainers and I can find it quite hard to connect them with the formally dressed men I normally perceive them as. They look younger, less impressive, less serious somehow. Even though I know them and in many cases work for them.

So, fair or unfair, she is not being realistic if she expects to have a serious professional career in an area where blokes wear suits, if she dresses like their daughter going to sixth form.

[SolidGoldBrass]

Thing is, by the sound of it, this is not a company rule, but a bit of old-fashioned officiousness on your part. Taking it upon yourself to police what your staff wear, if staff higher up than you have not asked for a particular dress code to be enforced, doesn't say a lot for your management skills. Your prejudices are your problem; don't get so hung up on them that you overlook talented staff.

[carabos]

I have had this conversation a few times with a friend of mine who is a GP. She wanted to know if, as a patient, it would matter to me what my doctor was wearing. After discussion we arrived at the conclusion that what matters is that in a professional setting (hers or mine) the clothing shouldn't be distracting. So nothing sexy, too quirky, or too blingy would be the rule. Clean, tidy, ironed, properly fitting are also important. Clean tidy hair and nails at minimum and not just in a medical setting.

I was once told off for wearing a denim jacket over a smart ish dress - I wasn't wearing it in the office, just slung it on to travel to and from work that particular day. My boss was very big on being representative of the company (posh property consultants) but I'm not sure how she thought anyone else in the train would know who I worked for . To my mind that over stepped the mark.

[LessMissAbs]

No, jeans and trainers are not acceptable in that role, and you shouldn't have to remind her. Particularly if she is a trainee solicitor - she should be trying to create a good impression so that she is kept on, and to build a client base of her own. Most clients expect solicitors to be quite formal and traditional, and it just isn't the right image. Especially if she is dealing with commercial clients or executries or similar. Neither is figure revealing or hugging clothing. There is plenty she can wear.

I have a couple of friends who were told not to wear trousers (only skirts or dresses) when trainee solicitors, the idea was not that trousers were bad but that people would use it as an excuse to wear jeans, or that some people cannot wear trousers without looking scruffy.

[SeaSickSal]

BadBelinda Just a thought but as she is a trainee how much are you paying her? If it is not a high paid role and she has high overheads such as travel then perhaps she's she's financially struggling to afford a full wardrobe of work clothes hence the jeans/trainers. Could you ask her if this is part of the problem when you bring it up if you think this might be the case?

[LessMissAbs]

TheFarSide How much evidence do we actually have that clients have a problem with certain types of dress? Has anyone lost business as a result of a staff member wearing jeans? Genuinely interested

In the small- medium sized solicitors firms I've worked for, the partners have put a huge effort into being seen as solid, respectable members of the community, whether that be members of committees, church elders, whatever. Its worth the effort on their part because it brings in business ie clients and new work. People like to view solicitors are non-transient and dependable entities where they can be guaranteed formality and all that goes with that - courtesy, privacy, respect.

Add into that some of the wealthiest clients at the moment seem to be farmers who sell land off for various things and have lots of cash to spend - country farmers who expect to see suits or their equivalent when they come to town to see their solicitor. Or employment law - clients don't want to see a solicitor dressed less informally than their own staff.

I was always told that a solicitor should cultivate an image of a "general man or woman of business". That means a suit, or equivalent.

[TondelayoSchwarzkopf]

You need to have a written dress code if you wish to enforce it. If you've not given her any guidelines on dressing other than one informal suggestion then it is not surprising she is not following it.

I don't understand if you work in a business "like a solicitors" why you don't have written staff policies and codes of conduct under which dress code would fall, regardless of the size of the business. It is not "common sense" - people have widely varying concepts of what is formal dress and most people under 60 consider jeans acceptable.

Personally I think the concept of 'professional attire' is so dated. Plenty of professions where trust, formality and dealing with the public are important don't have rigid dress codes. I've been treated by doctors with tattoos and piercings and taught by professors who look like they've slept in a hedge.

[LolaCrayola]

Yes you are old-fashioned. Jeans can be very smart. Trainers not so much.
I work in an environment where the men wear suits and ties but many of the women wear jeans. We look smart and professional.

[Crowler]

At a push, I'd say a solicitor-type role could be smart jeans with (for example) a pair of nice shoes and a blazer. At a push.

In the case of jeans + trainers, this is just ridiculous and I'd wonder if she was really taking her job seriously.

[nooka]

If I were you OP I'd have a chat with the other partners and determine what you (collectively) think appropriate attire is, and then talk to your junior. I think wearing trainers (unless they are dark and unobtrusive) is rarely appropriate for work, but she may feel that smart jeans are OK because in many work setting they are. If you have a mentoring relationship then this is the sort of thing you talk about isn't it? The impression you might give to your clients etc.

Personally I would not have a problem with seeing a professional in jeans - one of our corporate lawyers sometimes wears smart jeans, but that's not really the point, as you get to set the rules (so long as they are not discriminatory).

[Trazzletoes]

Get a formal dress code. Then everyone knows where they stand.

I'm a Solicitor, I'm expected to wear a suit because my clients expect me to wear a suit. They want their solicitor to look like a solicitor.

It doesn't really matter if you don't care if your solicitor is in jeans, there are plenty of people out there who do, so better not to wear them.

MrsDevere I used to have a nose piercing. I started taking it out when I started applying for training contracts. There's so much competition for jobs nowadays that if you don't fit with the image, you don't get hired so you either conform or go jobless. Iirc I wasn't allowed to wear it when I worked for Disney either.

[Platinumstart]

"people have widely varying concepts of what is formal dress and most people under 60 consider jeans acceptable"

I simply do not believe that most people under 60 consider jeans acceptable as formal dress and frankly if they do I pity them - on a personal level you might think jeans are fine for whatever job you do but to have no concept of what is generally considered to be appropriate is absurd. And puts you well behind the curve when it comes to employment opportunities.

[badguider]

Jeans are not "formal dress" buts at people do not wear "formal dress" for work. I never have. Mine is more "smart/casual" for daily and a bit "smart workwear" for presentations.
I wear jeans a lot with boots and jackets. I sometimes wear trainers with smart trousers. I try not to wear jeans and trainers together though.