To feel really let down by dd's school

[emsiewill]

Dd had to put in her potential A Level options back in July. Obviously the school can't finalise the timetable until after GCSE results, but they try and get an idea and start thinking about possible clashes etc.

Dd wants to do French & Maths (as well as 2 others). They were put in the same "column" and therefore can't both be taken. As far as we knew in July when the options columns came out, she was the only student wanting to do these 2 subjects.

I contacted the school at the time, as they advised parents to do if there were any problems. I have said all along that I understand that they cannot change the whole timetable to accommodate one student, and I don't expect them to do that. What I hoped they would do would be make some suggestions as to how we could work round this - would distance learning work for one of the subjects? Can she do one of them in another local school? Would they be able to fit her in outside the curriculum? I am not an expert in education, and don't know what is possible or doable.

Dd is quite sure that she wants to study both subjects at Uni, so really doesn't want to have to choose between them.

The first person I spoke to (head of upper school) was basically clueless and the conversation ended with him saying "I don't really know what to suggest".

I therefore emailed the head teacher, went through the whole explanation again and said I was disappointed that the school didn't seem able to help us deal with this issue. He emailed back saying he was sorry I was upset about the options, and that they can't always cater to every student. He thought there may be some "slack" in the French department for dd to do it outside normal lesson times, but they couldn't say for sure until the results came out, and he would get one of the deputy head teachers to call me in the meantime. No phone call was forthcoming.

GCSE results day comes round, as expected dd does very well, including A* in Maths & French (amongst others). I try to talk to the deputy head about the subject clash, but she basically brushed me off, telling me that we should focus on what dd wants to do in 2 years, it's not just about A level choices. I tried to explain that dd wants to do these 2 subjects in 2 years' time, but she just would not engage. I didn't want to spoil dd's day of celebration by getting into an argument so didn't take it further.

Dd went back to school yesterday. They said they may be able to accommodate Maths & French for her if there was only one overlapping lesson (ie she could go to all 4 Maths lessons a week, and 3 out of 4 of the French ones). They said we would have to get a tutor as well though to ensure she kept up with the French. They pressed dd quite hard to say which of the 2 subjects she would choose if she had to, but she was clear that she wants to do both.

Today, she has been told that actually, it's not going to be possible and therefore we will have to find out about her doing one of them outside school. No offer of assistance with this, no pointers, nothing. DH has called the school (I'm in work -supposedly!- he's got a day off) and is awaiting a call back from the head of sixth form.

There is a part-time A level maths course (1 evening per week) starting tonight at a local HE college. I am trying to get through to them as I type.

I feel very angry that the school wouldn't take us seriously back in July and have now put us in the position where we have no time to get something else sorted. I think they thought we would just give up on the idea.

Dd is one of the star pupils in the school - never given them a moment's trouble, won prizes every year, but they don't seem to want to help her achieve her potential.

As I say, I know they can't move everything around just for her. But surely they should give us more help in trying to find some alternative solutions?

[whois]

whois according to Wikipedia the only Universities that insist on Further Maths are Warwick, Cambridge and UCL

Oh, ok. Though it was a requirement as everyone at my sixth firm who was thinking of maths or physics at uni did further maths. Quite surprised it isn't offered at all sixth firms really.

[mumofweeboys]

Not sure if relevant

www.furthermaths.org.uk/wales.php

[Beastofburden]

It's not well drafted, that's for sure.

But much more important for the OP is that the course appears not to be what her daughter is assuming it is. Unless I have found the wrong course, she doesn't need a level French, she will have to do two languages, not one, and the level will be much lower than she thinks.

So OP needs urgently to check if her daughter even knows what she is on about here. And if she does want that course, simples, she does maths at school and adds further maths and step however she can, and keeps French for fun.

But actually I think she hasn't checked this course out at all carefully.

[ch1a]

I studied mathematics with modern languages at UCL. It was a wonderful course - 3/4 maths, 1/4 languages. You were able to choose which language you wanted to study each year and your current standard was assessed and then you were able to take the course at the appropriate level. I did As level french and A level German as well as maths and further maths and physics at A level. So in my first year I took business level German, in my second intermediate level french and in my final year beginners level Italian. You obtained the same credit for doing well at whichever level. If french is not available are there any other languages she could study for A level instead such as German or Spanish? She could then choose whatever combination she wants at UCL....depending I guess on whether she studied any others for GCSE?

[noblegiraffe]

whois it is hard enough finding maths teachers who can teach A-level, let alone be confident enough to teach Further Maths.

[Beastofburden]

Whois, the reason all the kids at your school did further maths is they got good advice. It's not enough just to scrape together the minimum that people insist on, if you are in competition. Just because Oxford might let you in without further maths doesn't mean it's a good idea. Almost everyone will have done it, and learned from it how to think mathematically. Oxford doesn't insist on further maths to avoid making it impossible for kids from certain schools, but that doesn't mean that it's a good idea not to do it.

[ch1a]

I should add that further maths is absolutely essential to study maths at a red brick university like UCL. Absolutely a must that she does this. Also I should add that I graduated in 2004 so the exact requirements language-wise may have changed since I was there...

[Beastofburden]

Ch1a that is very helpful, thanks. If the ops daughter has to choose, would you say do maths, or do French at a level at school? Ad would you say she ugly to try for further maths?

My sense is, she ought to focus on her maths as that's how she will be admitted, and enjoy her languages as they will be much more forgiving of those, so do finch at FE college but maths at school and STEP and further maths wherever they are best taught. Does that sound right to you?

[Beastofburden]

Cross posted... The vote is for maths and further maths, OP, and let French take its chance.

[ch1a]

Yes definitely maths and further maths. The maths part of the degree I.e. the main part is after the first term very intense and I couldn't imagine tackling it having not taken further maths even if it wasn't a requirement which it is at UCL. If you are of the level to be taking maths at UCL then really you would sail through maths a level and be challenged by further maths in that it opens your eyes to what maths is really all about! I loved the degree and was also able to take an elective option in my second and third year (from my hazy memories) and I took some very interesting psychology courses which were great. Given that I didn't have French or Italian a levels but was able to study those at the appropriate levels then languages should be the less important a level choice.

[ch1a]

OP if you have any specific questions please free to PM me and I will help all I can. I think in my year at UCL there were around 10 of us doing this combination and everyone I am still in touch with is using the degree in very interesting and varied ways. It has stood us all in good stead career wise.

[Oblomov]

I wonder what OP's dd is currently thinking?

[Beastofburden]

Seconding what ch says. From an admissions POV, when you are admitting to a maths degree, even if there are other optional subjects involved, what you are really concerned about is the maths. This is because if people can't do maths, then they really can't and there is not a lot you do to help them once they hit the wall known as WTF???? which most of us hit who are not mathematicians. UCL make it really clear in their admissions site that they are far less concerned about the language side. Your DD already has what she needed to get onto the course with her GCSE result, so if this is what she wants, the next two years need to be all about the maths.

But do PM ch and also ring UCL for advice to see if anything has changed, and what they say about schools who don't offer further maths.

[Mumoftwoyoungkids]

I'm a bit concerned that the school is talking about "helping out" with Further Maths. Further maths is not a short course that can be done in a few hours it is a full A level just like the maths, physics, chemistry and French.

(Actually most people who do F maths find maths A level ridiculously easy in comparison - I used to spend maths lessons flirting!)

I would be hunting for somewhere she can do Maths, F Maths, Physics and French.

Yes - the sixth forms will have some established friendship groups but friendships change a lot during A levels anyway as you get to meet people you didn't before. Plus a lot of people do move about at 16 - my school sixth form was roughly 50% from the school and 50% "incomers".

[Beastofburden]

True, mum. If she is absolutely clear about her degree choice then I would be doing maths, further maths and say physics at school with French as a sideline. But her school doesn't do further maths, not sure what options OP has. She'll need coaching for STEP too and that's nontrivial.

[whois]

whois it is hard enough finding maths teachers who can teach A-level, let alone be confident enough to teach Further Maths

I was going to ask if you were joking, but then I though ab

[whois]

whois it is hard enough finding maths teachers who can teach A-level, let alone be confident enough to teach Further Maths

I was going to ask if you were joking as I would expect any secondary maths teacher to be good for teaching A level.

But then I thought A level sure, but thinking about the kind of mad math skills needed to teach further maths and realised you would probably being doing quant finance for £lots rather than being a maths teacher. Which is a shame.

I had fantastic maths teaching at sixth form, my pure maths teacher also worked for Edexcel writing the pure maths papers. Really liked maths too, P3 was about the end of my ability to be comfortable with the concepts tho. It started getting a little abstract for my liking!

Defo agree F maths isn't a small extra, it's a full block. My friends all did the AS and A2 models in L6 then another 6 to finish F maths in U6 so not sure how it would work if you just sat normal maths plus 'help' as you wouldn't be covering the AS and A2 modules fast enough. Would be pretty hard to study M3 before you've sat M1 for example.

[ballstoit]

If your DD is hoping to travel to the USA to study in 2 years time, perhaps she should be gaining independence by sorting out her own A Level options?

I didn't realise helicoptering still went on at 6th form

[Cabrinha]

When my local 6th didn't do my preferred A levels, I personally found another.
Sounds like OP was relying far too much on school to do the running round and research, and the daughter relying too much on the OP!
At her age, she should be fixing this herself, albeit with guidance from OP.
If you have to do either maths or French outside regular school, I'd pick the French - I think far easier to get tutors for that.

[noblegiraffe]

I would expect any secondary maths teacher to be good for teaching A level.

You would hope. But there is a shortage of maths teachers and so you get teachers who have been drafted in from other subjects because they've got an A-level. You don't need all teachers in a department to teach A-level anyway, often adverts will say 'ability to teach A-level an advantage' rather than a requirement.

[morethanpotatoprints]

I would look at the strongest teaching department tbh and do the other subject with a private tutor.
Maybe maths would be better at college and French with a tutor.
Unfortunately quite a lot of schools and colleges are like this with time tabling and lessons clashing. A level is no different in this respect.
Also, as 6th form is not compulsory school they don't have to accept your dc like a school does and the system changes quite a lot.

[MrsBonkers]

Ha ha Ballstoit I was thinking the same.
Lots about what the school isn't doing and about what the OP could do, but what is the DD doing? What research has she done herself over the summer to research what and where she will be studying this September?
No wonder employers say people leaving full-time education don't have the skills they need.

OP, I wish you and your daughter well. Think this situation will be just the catalyst you both need to really help both of you on her journey to achieving her potential.

[emsiewill]

Can't post much as I'm in bed on phone, have been out all evening.

Thanks for all of the input, lots to think about. Apparently school only offer F maths if you did GCSE a year early & AS in year 11.

Dd is much more proactive than most of her friends in terms of researchIng into what is required for what she wants to do. I still think the school should offer more guidance and assistance for those children who have specific aims. Perhaps dd is suffering from going to a bog standard comp, rather than selective or private school where they are geared up to this. I don't believe that all other kids who get to the top unis get there because they are individually proactive & do it all themselves. Surely most of them have "expert" guidance?

It would seem that the only way dd will ever get into somewhere like UCL is by changing schools now. Wish I'd realised this sooner...but where is the guidance?

Those who say I'm helicoptering - would you really just leave your child to it? Is that what I should do? Seriously?

[emsiewill]

The school obviously think parents should be involved as we had to sign the options form to say we were happy with the choices.

Am now worrying that I have totally done it all wrong for dd, have left it all too late.

She started the part time Maths course at the FE college tonight. Didn't enjoy it, wishes she could do it at school, but is willing to persevere so she can do both subjects. But should I have encouraged that? We had to make a snap decision to make sure she got on the course.

Not sure I'll sleep well tonight.

[NoSquirrels]

Oh poor you.

No, don't just leave her to it. Even with a proactive, able child, you still need to fight her corner now. Now is when dreams can be lost for want of the best option; people telling you that "these are the options, bend to them". When you're 16-18, you shouldn't be bending. Time enough for all that. Your DD is telling you what she want to do, please do what you can to support her in that.