What exactly is the advantage of circumcision and why is their such insistence?

[FrigginRexManningDay]

I was watching 'What to expect when you're expecting' last night and one of the male characters was insisting on circumcision for his unborn son,which turned out to be a girl.

One of the reasons he agreed with was making the penis less sensitive. I don't understand the reasons behind it. AFAIK its not healthier or cleaner. I understand it being done for medical reasons of course,but it just seems unnecessary to be so routine in America.

[FrigginRexManningDay]

My dh washes his penis by eh washing it with a sponge,no pulling back of the foreskin,just washing what it visible,similar to the vagina not needing to be cleaned inside.

[ifyourehoppyandyouknowit]

Vaginas are also self cleaning surely? Wash the external bits but leave the inners alone?

[MaryKatharine]

• I don't actually teach dd2anything so particular as she is still little. Dd1 is older and hygiene is soon to become an issue. No touching of baby or young boys foreskins at all in this house. DS2s is as it was when he was born. Unless he comes to me complaining of anything hurting stinging or itching then it will be left alone until he decides otherwise.

[Bluegrass]

"Worldwide, one man in three is circumcised. Get over it. Unless you think one in three mothers and fathers are barbaric/vile/bad persons/mutilators? That makes for a whole lot of barbarians out there."

Prima- this argument could be used to prevent any sort of societal progress. You could go back and say that if enough men beat their wives, or enough parents birch their children then you should get over it as it is clearly acceptable. That can't be right though can it?

[MaryKatharine]

But splashing of water is fairly external. It's not like douching! It is indeed self cleaning but a slashing certainly freshens in the morning!

[MaryKatharine]

Oh what a Freudian slip for this thread! I noticed just as I pressed post but too late to change! Obviously I meant splashing rather than slashing!

[ifyourehoppyandyouknowit]

Slashing vaginas sounds much less fun!

Yeah, bit of a wash with water is fine, just had an image of someone scrubbing their poor vagina out with a loofer!

[ICBINEG]

It doesn't matter a damn if you think the rates of HIV or other STI justify it. It doesn't matter a damn if you are circumcised. It doesn't matter a damn if you think your religion or culture demands it. It doesn't matter a damn if you find it aesthetically pleasing.

IT IS NOT YOUR PENIS SO LEAVE IT THE FUCK ALONE.

evil = treating children like possessions

[Primafacie]

Bluegrass, my point is that if one is taking the position that "all people who circumcise are bad people", or that "circumcising your son makes you evil", then you have to conclude that one in three people in the world is evil. Now admittedly I only know a very small percentage of all people, but it strikes me as very unlikely that one in three of them is evil. Or that 87% of all people in North Virginia are evil. I think mostly people do what they think is best for their child, based on medical advice at the time, their culture, religion and values. It is simply not true that parents who opt for circumcision wish to hurt their babies - quite the opposite, I expect most of them do it so that the child is part of his community, as a bond with god, or to keep diseases at bay, none of which seems evil to me.

I understand that there is always a danger of moral relativism, and I also understand that circumcision makes a lot of people uncomfortable. But there is always an undertone of cultural imperialism on these threads: the overwhelming position seems to be that we (Brits) don't do it, and clearly we know better, therefore it must be bad and (big leap) parents who do it are themselves bad people.

It is such a manichean view of the world. I just think the position in real life is more nuanced.

[Sallyingforth]

IT IS NOT YOUR PENIS SO LEAVE IT THE FUCK ALONE.

Just that.

If the foreskin was unnecessary and fundamentally dirty, it would have disappeared by normal evolution.

Like any other part of the body it can get diseased, and in that case it will be right to treat it. Otherwise it should be left alone.

[Primafacie]

If the foreskin was unnecessary and fundamentally dirty, it would have disappeared by normal evolution.

What, like the appendix? :o

I don't think you understand just how slow evolution actually is.

[ICBINEG]

The act of treating children like possessions is evil.

The people who do it may be very evil (if they live in a society that obviously abhors such behaviour) or not at all evil (if they are living in a society that not only deems such behaviour as essential but in which they are repressed and actually have very little or no choice).

It is a sliding scale....

[FrigginRexManningDay]

So would you remove a newborns appendix or tonsils?

[Wibblypiglikesbananas]

In answer to the original post, I often wonder this at the Dr's office. I'm a Brit in America, due to give birth to a baby boy in the next couple of months, and I'm appalled at the level of promotion given to circumcision here.

DH and I have made it very clear to my OB that we don't even want to be asked the question once the baby is safely delivered - as appears to be standard. And this is in a hospital that has the highest 'baby friendly' rating possible in the US - not much friendly about taking a knife to a newborn in my eyes.

I absolutely appreciate the need for medical circumcision, but to cite 'culture' as a reason/excuse for this barbaric practice is just pathetic. It really does baffle me that in North America, the US in particular, with all the talk of human rights and freedoms, this practice still exists. Yes, freedom to choose when you're an adult is one thing, but to be allowed to butcher a newborn in this day and age?! Unbelievable.

[MaryKatharine]

Prima, do you see FGM in the same way? Or is male circumcision ok because it is also practiced in nice, sanitised western environments?

Just because a practice is entrenched in culture (such as slavery) doesn't mean we shouldn't object and try and encourage those who participate to see the light. I don't see that as particularly imperialistic or British just sensible and educated.

I maintain my belief that if the baby was able to articulate the torture and confusion going through its little head and was lying there begging for mercy then many parents who go along with this barbaric custom would think twice.

[ifyourehoppyandyouknowit]

I do often wonder how this fits in to the pro-life culture in America too. I mean, we must respect the rights of the foetus, but once it's born, do what you want?

[thegreylady]

My ds's Muslim mil offered him a large quantity of gold [true] if he would be circumcised before he married her dd.He declined with thanks.In Turkey the practice is for boys to be circumcised [in hospital under GA] when they are about 8.There is a huge party,special dressing up outfits and parades through the streets!
Ds said that if they had a ds he would leave it to him to choose,however they had a dd so not relevant thank goodness.

[ifyourehoppyandyouknowit]

Actually Mary as much as I am against routine circumcision of boys for cultural or religious reasons, I don't think you can compare against FGM. FGM is about controlling girl's sexuality, and is a practice that causes immense, sometimes life threatening, harm to girls and women. Male circumcision generally leaves a man still able to have a perfectly normal sex life. FGM is a whole other sphere of horror. It's not done for the same, or even similar, reasons. The comparison between the two only serves to make FGM see more trivial.

[SamG76]

ICBINEG - I'm a Londoner born and bred - am I very evil or just repressed? What difference does it make to your argument if I'm Jewish (and I mean practising, rather than the somewhat lacklustre posters who have been saying that they aren't having a brit for their child....) ?

[SaucyJack]

My boyfriend was circumcised as a child due to a tight foreskin, and if I'm honest, from my fairly limited sample of penii I do prefer it.

It is cleaner. I would happily eat my dinner off of it (sorry tmi)

[Kungfutea]

You don't know what a newborn baby is thinking or feeling. It's your projection. Maybe they're thinking ' thanks mum and dad for doing this now when its the least complicated'

Prima - excellent points! I find the cultural superiority distasteful. Look at the reference upthread to rape being problem in Africa. Ummm, Africa Jang a bloody country!

[Kungfutea]

That should be Africa is not a country.

[Wibblypiglikesbananas]

But Kungfu - the 'least complicated' situation would be to leave things as nature intended, surely? Why complicate things at all?!

[Kungfutea]

Because what if my child, being part of a culture where all men and boys are circumcised, is unhappy not being circumcised.

[ifyourehoppyandyouknowit]

Then when they are old enough they can make a decision for themselves.