To not pay for my neighbours flats to be cleaned after building works?

[happyfrogger]

We are 4 weeks into a 6 week renovation on the ground floor flat we just bought in London. We have 2 neighbours above, one on either side and one at the back. We are not living there whilst the work is being done (it's a building site). It's noisy and messy.

We like to think we are considerate and neighbourly, and contacted all the neighbours letting them know our plans and schedule. We have left notes and chocolates with them part way through the works and kept them informed (and continued to apologise for the disruption) along the way.

Unfortunately, they are starting to get impatient. This week we have had a very unhappy email stating how shocked and upset the neighbours are about the state our builders are leaving the place in. They expect the communal hall to be hoovered daily and no building rubbish to be left outside in the front garden at any point. (I believe it's not in their way and personally I would bear with it for this short period). We have asked our builders again to keep it cleared regularly where possible.

I am sympathetic to a point, and we have played a civil and apologetic game. The neighbour DEMANDED her windows were cleaned by us at the end of the work, we happily we said yes of course. We also pointed out we would have communal areas professionally cleaned / carpets washed at the end of the work - and make good any damage or knocks to the communal hall etc.

We visited today to keep them informed. We were met with up-tightness and attitude. I understand it is not nice living amidst this but I'm not sure what else I can do to placate them.

Above all I want to be FAIR. Today's demand was 'I think we (all the neighbours) DESERVE that you pay for all our flats to be cleaned. At which point I said 'unfortunately I think this is a hazzard of flat living, but I'm happy to have all communal areas processionally cleaned, as you know.' Perhaps I object to the word 'deserve' or that I'm being seen as the meal ticket for redecorating the hall (yes they asked for that too). I like the fact that we are moving to an area with people who care about being considerate neighbours but I think they are starting to be unfair and there is little else I feel I can do at this point.

AIBU? What else can I do / suggest that is FAIR and without setting the expectation that I can be walked over just to keep the peace???

[Jan49]

It sounds like the building work is really tough on your neighbours. I think you should do what you can to avoid upsetting them because you are going to be living next door to them when it's finished! You also mention a 1 y.o. and a new baby so you need your neighbours to be tolerant and considerate of noise and the better you get on with them, the more likely they are not to complain about your dc's noise.

[TarkaTheOtter]

I think morally you need to "make right" any mess your building work has caused. Could they not sue you for any damage caused by the dust to curtains and carpets. Agree with pp that the chocolates were derisory. I would imagine your retired neighbour is at home a lot an bearing the brunt of the noise/inconvenience.

Also, as someone who is pregnant with a 1yo I would in no way be tolerant of 6 weeks building work noise, so you must be very zen or in denial.

[onedev]

I'm glad you relented Op & are going to get their flats cleaned as it all sounds like a nightmare. I'm so glad I'm not your neighbour!

Hope it all gets finished on schedule.

[Mumoftwoyoungkids]

It's important to remember that you are not their neighbour - you are a complete stranger who has made the difficult heat wave more difficult for them! Had you lived next door to them for 3 years and fed their cat when they go on holiday then they may have been more tolerant.

The landlord is presumably particularly annoyed as the tenant is probably threatening to move out / coming to the end of his tenancy / demanding reduced rent and he knows that he won't be able to re-let his property until after you have finished. Which will cost him significant money.

The elderly neighbour is annoyed because she has three choices:-

1. Stay in with the windows closed listening to muffled noise as her flat slowly resembles a greenhouse.
   
2. Open the windows and listen to the noise whilst watching dust float in.
   
3. Be forced out of her home in the heat.
   

Seriously - would you really be happy with any of these?

Good relationships with neighbours is ridiculously important and nowhere more so than in a flat. I remember in my old flat the above neighbour's washing machine sounded like the ceiling was going to crash in. They knew this so made a massive effort to do most of their washing at the weekends (when I was usually away). I knew that for some reason my telly would echo weirdly so even if it was on really really quietly they could still make out every single word. I would always turn my telly of at 10pm as they were early bedders even though I was a night owl who really wanted to watch telly at midnight.

If you are going to have a toddler and a baby they will be able to make your lives hell very very easily.

[Mammyisthegirl]

Sorry, but YABU. If I was lumbered with a building site, in this weather, by neighbours who weren't there, I'd be really cross - and I'm very tolerant (lived in flats in various cities for about 10 years). Dust gets everywhere - we just had a new kitchen fitted and it was through the entire house, despite plastic sheeting sealing it all off, and the tidiest fitters I've ever met.

[weallwearcapes]

It is great that you are keeping them informed about what is happening etc...

The flat below ours was renovated recently & I had a small baby. The dust was unbelievable, and this was when all the windows were closed, it just came up from downstairs through the floor boards and chimney. It was grim, so everyday I had to wipe surfaces, mop floors and dust to get rid of the thin layer on everything. It was horrid, then on top of that was all the bloody noise. I had to change where the baby was having naps or go out, and most of the time I hated them being here so much and hanging out by my front door and making going in and out of my flat such a PITA that I would stay out all day. It pissed me off a lot.

I think offering to clean their flats is the least you can do to manage future relations with them.

In fact I think that there should be a legal requirement to pay compensation to direct neighbours for each day work is going on, maybe just £10 but it would help to feel that you are getting something out of it rather than disruption, because the builders, in my experience couldn't give a shit about the neighbours.

[PeriodFeatures]

6 weeks in the middle of summer? I think I would be absolutely insistent at the very least that my builders thoroughly cleaned up at the end of every day. The other people in the building will have to endure treading dust and building debris into their flats, that's before you consider noise, dust coming through windows, being disturbed early in the morning. If it was just a quick 1 week job then fine but 6 Weeks??!!

They sound a very reasonable bunch actually. You need to hire a window cleaner and a contract cleaner at the end and get the place sorted. Individual peoples flats too.

[PeriodFeatures]

I'm being seen as the meal ticket for redecorating the hall

Sorry but you don't sound very nice. 6 weeks is a long time. I hope someone renovates another flat after you've moved in and you have to live with 6 weeks of banging and dust. See whether your civility and tolerance can last a month before you start being a bit uptight.

I'd want the communal areas made good if someone in my building spent 6 weeks shitting them up. I wouldn't see it as a meal ticket just a being a decent human being.

[bottleofbeer]

Hmm tough one. Some flats at the back of my house have been getting renovated the last couple of weeks, including a new roof. I've had a constant layer of black dust settle over everything in the kitchen but it wouldn't occur to me to ask for them to pay for cleaning.

[limitedperiodonly]

Maybe you should, bottle.

I've no objection to people improving their houses but if it costs me then I will demand recompense. It's only fair.

[Bosgrove]

While I see both points of view, when we extended our property, our builders caused much mess on the side that they extended which effected the property next door. Think lots of dust and messed up flower bed. While during the work we talked about the timescale and before the plans were even submitted to the council we had taken them in to show and discuss with them, we still ended up given them a lot of money when the work had finished so they could put their property back to the condition it was in before our work started.

For us the money was in the hundreds not tens, I thought that it was a lot, but realistically they haven't made any money, our building work just hasn't cost them anything, and the amount of goodwill that we have gain was worth the cost.

[QOD]

Oh how you gonna handle the roof/garden issue?

[babyhmummy01]

Personally I thunk you have been mire than reasonable in keeping them abreast of developments etc as there is nothing whatsoever to force that. The chocolates could have been seen as a but if a piss take but your heart was clearly in the right place.

I would talk to them all individually and explain that having thought about it you will of course have a carpet cleaner in to clean their floors at the end of the project. It is a reasonable request on their part even if the way they approached you was rude and out of order.

As for the roof/terrace thing am intrigued as to the outcome!

[KeatsiePie]

OP, I don't think you should have had to time your purchase or renovation differently. And you do seem very sympathetic, and it's clear that you do understand how their daily life feels chaotic and dirty and dusty and noisy and just generally crappy during the best part of the year. And the results of the renovation will be of zero benefit to them; it's your home, not theirs. So they're going through a lot for you.

Sure, that's communal living, yes. But you said Because it's quite substantial, the dust is spreading and getting into their flats.

If I were your neighbor, I would absolutely think that it was your right to renovate your new home. But if substantial amounts of dust was getting into my home, and I was having to spend six weeks cleaning it off every surface, worrying about the computers and stereos being damaged, trying to keep it from being ground into my nice carpets, etc., and you didn't think that it was your responsibility to take care of it? That would anger me.

Here's a comparison: you're going to have the communal areas cleaned. Why? B/c they're getting filled with dust from your renovation. It's your dust. So, are the neighbors' homes being filled with dust from your renovation? If they are, then yes, you should have them cleaned. B/c again it's your dust.

[sandwichyear]

Agree with majority that you should definitely be getting their flats cleaned at the end of the works at minimum- not quite sure why you would think that wasn't fair if you acknowledge that you are spreading dust.

Also from a purely selfish point of view, it really is a good thing to store up goodwill with neighbours. I have always made a huge point of keeping the goodwill with ours in our flat/ paying up for things when there was a question mark over whether it was genuinely owed or not. The goodwill paid back massively recently when we had a huge expense that our neighbours agreed to share with us even though they really could have fought it.

[happyfrogger]

"The landlord is presumably particularly annoyed as the tenant is probably threatening to move out / coming to the end of his tenancy / demanding reduced rent and he knows that he won't be able to re-let his property until after you have finished. Which will cost him significant money."

In this whole drama, the tenant has been very understanding and said he completely understands and feels our level of contact has been 'very kind' and that he has no problem with the temporary situation. His landlord has given us the 'I dare not ask him how he feels as he's clearly living in squalor amidst your mess'!!

[happyfrogger]

"Oh how you gonna handle the roof/garden issue?"

Personally, I have a live and let live attitude, I'm happy that the space is used and enjoyed by the neighbour. (And yes, the noise of moving furniture about on it is loud because of the nature of the roof) My concern is that this clearly happened with the previous owners such as we are currently paying to fix a torn/damaged ceiling & leaking by dragging iron furniture about on the roof, watering pot plants etc.

I want to ensure that if damage happens again, I am not liable to pay or even split the cost - given that the extension was not granted as a roof terrace nor is it insured for use in this way.

I would suggest the neighbour seeks buildings control/planning permission to ensure it is (a) safe to be used and protects our flat underneath and (b) insured if she wants to continue using it.

Without that I would be nervous of it's continued use and would explain to her why.

[GettingVerySleepy]

I'm sorry to say it happyfrogger but it sounds like your message about the roof used as a terrace would be better coming via letter from a solicitor. Your neighbour has already caused damage that you've had to pay to fix and if I were you I'd want to make sure she didn't get away with it again. Oh dear, things are not starting well in your new living situation!

[mirry2]

I don't agree with getting very sleepy. The best way would be to approach the neighbour informally about it and let her know that you are going to ask a solicitor for advice to protect both your interests and give a recommendation in writing. that way you will (hopefully) stay on friendly terms with the neighbour. a solicitor's leter out of the blue is bound to put her back up.

[pinkyredrose]

Op I would do anything to stay on your neighbours good side atm. It sounds like you've well and truly shit all over someones retirement, 6 wks of building hell and now you're going to force a baby and 1yr old know them too.

I would ask her not to use your roof though, she doesn't have permission and if anything happens (eg. she falls off) you could be liable.

[Ledkr]

We have lived next door to major renovation for months now.
It's been thoroughly miserable for us. We are woken every morning by the builders arriving and preparing to start work at 8, we can't use our garden very often as the noise and dust is awful. I've had to ask them several times not to swear as I have small children. They even knocked through my wall and nobody seemed bothered by it until I contacted a local counsellor.
The owners can't live there but our lives have been massively affected.
I APBU but do consider how awFul it must have been for them. It's like having your life put on hold.

[Redlocks30]

Sorry but yes, you should pay. How would you feel
If the situation was reversed?

[Levantine]

I honestly can't believe you were considering not paying for their flats to be cleaned. It doesn't matter whether they are nice or not, I would be seriously pissed off in the circumstances you describe if I were in your block

[Justforlaughs]

I'm at how many people are saying things like "in the worst weeks of the year for a major renovation", you have got to be kidding! Imagine if it was wet, the mud and dirt would be million times worse. The dust would be no better than it is now, as it is indoors.
I think the OP sounds like she is trying hard to be reasonable but doesn't want to be treated as a doormat. I would never expect anyone to pay to clean my house after doing any building work. However, if someone offered to have my carpets cleaned I would be very grateful and that could be worth the investment, from the OP's point of view.

I would go with the advice from the poster who said to get a quote from a cleaning company, and give the money plus a copy of the written quote, however I would probably want to cover my back from any other possible claims and ask a solicitor (possibly a friend, if I had one, or possibly on legal on mumsnet) about this possibly compromising your admitted liability. I really hope that your new home meets up your expectations OP and that you are very happy there.

[JessicaBeatriceFletcher]

YABU. If your building work is causing mess in any other flat by virtue of dust being swept by the breeze into their flat then I would have offered and not waited for someone to demand it be cleaned.

Yes, not your fault there is a heatwave in the middle of your renovation but not theirs either. They can't be expected to not open their windows. Leaving under or over a 6-week major ripping out and refurb is a very noisy business regardless of the mess.