...to expect my 4yo DD to do what she is told? Friend said IABU

[ThatsNotMyDinosaur]

My 4yo DD is a lovely girl, if you ask anyone who knows her they would say she is polite, well mannered and well behaved. But what they don't see is that at home she can be very stubborn, refusing to do what she is told.

It can be anything from 'stop being silly on the stairs, you will fall' to 'stop teasing your little brother' to 'please put your shoes away' or 'come on, into the car please'. She doesn't do it, she looks at me and just carries on whatever she is doing.

I always ask nicely the first time (this is usually enough if we are out or with others), then I ask a second time with a tone that says I am serious, and if I have to ask a third time then I show that I am cross with her (no yelling or anything just a cross face and very firm) and she has to do her 4 minute time out. This always turns into tears and sobbing because she has been told off and in time out, but she just doesn't get that if she had done what she was told then she wouldn't be in trouble.

It drives me mad, why can't she just do what she is told? She used to, then she turned four!

My friend said I am expecting too much, I shouldn't expect a four year old to do what she is told. But I don't think IABU because she used to do what she was told before this attitude arrived and her 3 yo brother mostly does what he is told will cry if he turns difficult on his 4th birthday too

So, AIBU?

[ThatsNotMyDinosaur]

YY to this "but if they used to be able to do stuff or follow instructions aged 3 why on earth let them off because they've flat out decided

No, I don't want to do that
I'll do it in my own time (if at all)
If I disregard her, mummy will do it herself or leave me in peace"



I feel like a tyrant now after some of these responses! Serves me right for asking others opinions I suppose.

[MmeLindor]

With regard to 'breaking spirits' --

I don't think that this is in danger of happening in this case, as CJ said. Thatsnotmydino, you sound like lovely, fun and caring parents who want the best for their DC.

I do think that it is not ideal though, to have children too eager to please their parents. Or feeling that they disappoint their parents if they don't do what they are told. That is borrowing trouble for later.

[thepixiefrog]

I think it's normal behaviour tbh. but I also think you are dealing with it really well. My DC are the same, and it is usually because my agenda is at odds with theirs.

"I am busy building the tallest Lego tower yet, and bloody mum has come and told me I need to brush my teeth! Can't she see I'm doing some really important work?!"

I try to give them 3 minute warnings about what is going to happen next and what I want them to do.

Sounds like you manage it really well, keep doing what you're doing.

[MmeLindor]

The reason she has changed, is that she is maturing.

She is getting older. And she is developing normally, which means questioning WHY she has to do what you tell her to do.

Don't see it as misbehaving, see it as her finding her own voice, her own opinions.

Just as we all have different viewpoints, our kids have different viewpoints and opinions.

You need to welcome it, not reject it, as it shows that she is growing up.

[SoftlySoftly]

Have you stolen my daughter? ?

At 3.5 dd1 is exactly as you describe sweet loving hwlpful polite then she adamantly Refuses to do the silliest things resulting in tears.

I just do natural consequences (if you dont do x we wont make it to y) or removal of stuff and if I have the energy making it funny always works "silly x you haven't done y giggle, Let's see if you can do it in 10 second countdown". Or if I have no time I just pick her up and make her. Life is too short for timeouts!

I do discuss everything afterwards and she understands she just gets stubborn.

Thinking of it though I was a pita but because I was taught right from wrong I'm generally a good person I how that's what persistance with her will bring.

On the flipside just think of the positives, woe betide any controlling fuckwit bloke trying it on with my wilful daughter in 20 years .

[plantsitter]

We have recently started a marble jar with DD who's also 4 and sounds similar. She gets a certain number of marbles for various things like getting herself dressed, and then I will randomly give her one or two if she does as she's told first time. Ignoring me would result in some being taken away. She gets a treat when it's full, but she seems to focus more on the marbles themselves and even does extra tasks to earn them! Obviously you have to be careful not to say 'if you do whatever you can have a marble' about things she ought to be doing anyway!

We've also been playing a game where I give her instructions for an obstacle course - like 'run to the end of the garden, turn round three times, then come back' and it has had the unexpected effect of getting her to do as she's told much more quickly - I think it's exercising her listening skills!

[babybythesea]

I'm going to go and check DD is in her bed - I think you may have my daughter. She is also 4 and is also stubborn and can be very willful.

I do things in a very similar way to you. I do explain why we need to do things but it's not always a good strategy. She is likely to say "It's ok Mummy, I can just play here then." If I say "Put your shoes on so we can get to the park", she is quite capable of saying "I don't want to go to the park". I can offer choices but it's not always appropriate to do that, so she needs to know that when I tell her to do something she has to get on with it.

I do 'relevant consequences' if I can. Messing about when I've asked her to go up to bed means we can't do some part of the bedtime routine - maybe she can't have her cup of milk as now there isn't time, for example. I sometimes do 'time out' but not all that often - I'm more likely to withdraw treats - no ice cream after tea. It doesn't matter whether or not I was going to give her ice cream - it works as a threat (some of the time. Other times, she's likely to say "Well I don't like ice cream anyway".) I also do 'positive outcomes' (if you do this then we will have enough time to play snakes and ladders). This sometimes works. Other times she'll say "I don't want to play that". The same thing doesn't work without fail every time, so I have to judge the mood she's in and try and figure out what might work on that day - my only rule is that once I've said something, it happens. Whether it's a good or bad thing - so if \i've said she's not getting a treat, she doesn't. If I've promised we'll play a game, we do. Which means I am very careful in what I 'threaten' - nothing that I can't do (getting involved in a long game of ludo just when I need to get dinner ready, or saying she can't go to a party when I've no intention of stopping her).

Sometimes I might ask her why she's refusing to do something and we can talk about it but I can usually tell if she's doing something just to be difficult - can't tell you how but there's a way she looks at me. And ultimately, she does have to do what i ask as I am the one charged with getting her to things on time, keeping her clean and healthy etc.

I have no real advice but it sounds as though there's a lot of us going through it!

And I also wanted to add having read some of the posts that posting about an argument you have had/are having with your child doesn't mean that every second of every day is like that, or that you are not enjoying them. You want help with a particular problem, so that's what you write about, not all the times that they are perfect and funny and great company - that's not the bit you need help with! I don't think there's anything wrong with having a child who does what they're told - in fact, they tend to be the nicer ones to be around. Doesn't mean they have to be terrified of you.

[sameoldIggi]

I have noticed that when my 5 year old doesn't do what I've said, he often wasn't even listening at the time - so I do a lot of "what is it mummy wants you to do?" type checking to see if he actually heard. Also, processing can be an issue. What does "being silly on the stairs" mean and how do they stop it? It's easier to undertand direct instructions like "come down from the stairs". I sometimes say too many things to ds "put you coat on, and your shoes - they're in the living room - and get your snack from the kitchen" and then am surprised when he doesn't do it all - I am learning, slowly, how to speak to him so he really understands!
I think you are expecting a little too much, imho.

[babybythesea]

Mmelindor : Just as we all have different viewpoints, our kids have different viewpoints and opinions.

Kind of. But equally, if I tell her she must hold my hand crossing a road, she has to do it. If she's used to arguing the toss, then it becomes harder when there's a situation where I am not prepared to 'compromise'. I have discussed why she needs to - we talked about being hurt. However, she thinks being hit by a car means she'd just need a bigger plaster (and is more interested in whether the bigger plaster would have one big Peppa picture on it, or lots more of the same small pictures that her normal plasters have). She's got no experience of serious hurt, or hospital, so the discussion means nothing to her.
She does not always have the maturity to understand where she can argue the toss, and where she really can't, so the default position is "Do as I say". This will gradually change as her understanding of the world grows.
I can, and do, sometimes, ask her why she's saying or doing something, but she also needs to know that even if I've asked her why, it won't stop me insisting she do what she's told. If I know her reason I may be able to explain why something is happening more clearly, or correct a wrong impression she's got or similar, but "Why don't you want to hold my hand?" followed by "Because I don't want to and you're silly" is not going to stop me holding her hand.

[WorraLiberty]

OP you sound like you're picking your battles perfectly to me.

You're her parent and what you say goes. The sooner she realises that the better.

Come September, the school will be giving her clear instructions and rules to follow and she won't be able to pick and choose which ones she likes.

Keep up what you're doing and don't doubt yourself.

I think starting school may make things easier in the sense that she'll understand that there are consequences, when she ignores you/her teachers.

[MmeLindor]

Baby
Oh, yes. Obviously I do have some 'No discussion' topics.

Anything safety related such as crossing roads or wearing seatbelts, being polite and respectful to others, school and bullying...

That is what I mean when I say that parents should choose their battle carefully.

If you are battling with the DC over which socks to wear, and putting their shoes away, or finishing their peas... it is simply very tiring. For you and the DC.

So you decide on the non-negotiable issues, and give yourself some leeway on some of the other stuff.

There is sometimes this idea that if you give in on the little stuff, they will run away on the big stuff. I haven't found that to be true.

'Giving in' on the little stuff shows your DC that you are willing to compromise and work with them.

[iamadoozermum]

Chipping it's funny you said "God - don't start the counting thing (sorry I'm a doozer!) but that just ends up with you having kids that don't do anything until the very last minute of it - it's a nightmare." - cos that's what happens with DS2, he waits til the last count, but it really works with DS1 and DS3 who jump up and start doing it pretty much as soon as I start counting. I have to say, I don't mind waiting the 5 seconds for me to get to the end of the count if it still means DS2 will get it done!

[fairylightsinthespring]

sounds about right OP. DS is nearly 4 and when I ask him to do things (often having given a minute or two warning), if he doesn't do it the first time, I'll urge him on a little, offer a choice where possible or say he'll not get x,y z but if all else fails then I'll say, "I'm going to count to 3 and then if you don't come, stop kicking, whatever I will shout and then you'll cry and do it anyway, so lets just do it shall we"? The shout is not really shouting, just a slightly louder, firmer tone, but it works. I don't like it but he does have to just learn to do what he's asked to do. Life is pretty busy, we have to be out the door at 7.20am and I'm sorry, but even get up before 6 it can be a rush if he and his 2 year old sister don't get on with it and comply. When time is not a factor, or its something entirely for them, like a park visit, they can take as long as they like but I have one rule and that is "do as you are asked". I get the idea of growing up and developing independence which is why I exercise patience and restraint and don't just yell at him, but ultimately he does have to "get it". He starts school in Sept, as a very young four and I don't want him to be the one who can't learn because he can't follow instructions.

[TokenGirl1]

I am so glad it's nother just me either. I seem to be having a constant battle with my 3 and 4 year old.

I was so worried I did a parenting course at a Children's Centre which really helped with different techniques. That said, I've forgotten it all now and so I need to go back to the booklet and remind myself of them.

Good luck. It sounds like normal behaviour for thus age, growing up a bit and firming their own opinions and no longer relatively compliant toddlers.

[MumnGran]

Age & stage, but actually OP I do not think YABU because part pof this "stage" is testing limits, and as a mother you know where you want the limits to be set.........everyone has differing boundaries, and differing strategies/responses.

I used to 'psych' mine into the right response before it became an argument i.e "please put your socks on" offered opportunity for argument or refusal to comply whereas "which socks would you like to wear" offered a choice ..... "Put your coat on" allowed for refusal, "would you like to put on the red coat or the blue coat" was a choice .....Its not always going to work, but it reduces some of the battles. realises I probably was a very choices based parent, and bets it is now probably an officially named strategy !!

Despite the endless exhaustion of dealing with the argument, and handling the tearful timeouts, IMHO it is worth continuing the strong stand simply because this is a stage where they are defining the boundaries, and your levels of tolerance. It is a finite process, and they do stop challenging.

Picking your battles? each to his own ..... I held back that strategy for the teen years ..... when they were offering me serious and well reasoned arguments why it ought to be 'their way'

[ChippingInWiredOnCoffee]

imadoozer I'm glad it works for 2/3 without hassle and 1/3 eventually . I've been around a lot of kids and frankly, it drives me batshit when the only way they'll do anything is when you start the 'countdown' - so I would never encourage someone to start doing it - but hey - each to their own

[sparklekitty]

Does she have a count down for things like shoes? 'You need to have your shoes on in 5-4-3-2-1 or xyz will happen', alternatively 'I bet I can get ready quicker than you, if you can beat me you can have xyz treat (possibly a star on chart etc)'.

Does she have reminders, as in 'thats your first warning, if I get to 3 it will be time out', 'thats your second warning, what will happen if I have to tell you again?' Get her to verbalise before time out that she knows that is the next step.

I don't have a 4yo but I teach 4/5 and 6 yo and this usually works, alongside good positive rewards and lots of praise.

[Graceparkhill]

I am from the Mme Lindor school of parenting and my two are now 21 and 14 and well mannered/ considerate / genuinely helpful.

I have very low standards when it comes to tidiness/ what clothes to wear and apart from the health and safety stuff didn't see that my will should always prevail in the early years.

Funnily enough both are very tidy and punctual but I think this is borne out of consideration and desire to get along as a family unit.

They also have many faults but that is another thread.

[mrsjay]

Does she have a count down for things like shoes? 'You need to have your shoes on in 5-4-3-2-1 or xyz will happen', alternatively 'I bet I can get ready quicker than you, if you can beat me you can have xyz treat (possibly a star on chart etc)'.

this is what I used to do it worked great with the DDS tis like a 5 second warning

[Onetwo34]

Useful thread to read - it has definitely given me some things to think about regarding my parenting of my four year old.

[mrsjay]

t has definitely given me some things to think about regarding my parenting of my four year old.

I think threads like this gives little tips that you can pick and chose to try, no mumsnet when mine were 4 we just had to wing it I would have loved this when they were small

[MmeLindor]

My mum just demonstrated this very well this morning.

She was taking DS to school - only across the busy road and they walk the rest of the way. I looked out of the window at 8.53 to see him sitting on his football, crying. Mum was at top of road, DD had already crossed and was dithering about carrying on.

He didn't want to walk, wanted taken in the car. Mum decided 'my way or the highway' and walked off with DD.

My son is VERY stubborn when dealt with in this way. Mum had backed herself into a corner. I went out and gave him a good telling off for being disrespectful to his granny and took him to school (he would have been late otherwise).

We will be having a chat tonight about this, but there was no point in sticking to my mum's guns and him being 15mins late for school.

He is very very logical, and I have found using geometrical analogy works well. I explain that the family has 4 corners, like a square, with a person at each corner. If one person gets what they want all the time, the square gets lopsided and falls over.

[Graceparkhill]

I think the square thing is brilliant. Will use that. I do a team approach- we are all on the same side with the same objective so we don't need to "battle "each other.

[choceyes]

Very interesting thread!
My 4.7yrs old DS is very challenging at the moment. Not listening, annoying his little sister, speaking in an annoying silly voice all the time, trying to get DD nearly 3, to disobey me, crying and tantrumming etc etc. I really feel like I have lost my way with him. I have very little patience with him now, and I seem to go from calm to screaming in a few seconds at any hint of him doing something I disaprove of. I feel so awful about my parenting. I'm definitely not doing the right thing. DH thinks that we have to be tougher with him and is always giving him time outs. They never work ofcourse.
He has been behaving badly at nurseyr too recently, although well behaved this week so far.
I tell him the consequences of him being naughty at nursery, like his friends wouldn't want to play with him if he hits them or grabs their toys, they wouldn't want him to go on the nursery trip etc etc and I also dont engage him in conversation for awhile afterwards, to show my dissapointment at his behavious. I'm not sure if I am doing the right thing.
But when we get home I do cuddle and hug him, but DH says I shouldn't be doing that if he's been naughty at nursery. Is this right?
I don't know what I am doing anymore, parenting is just so hard

[whatsthatcomingoverthehill]

I don't think withdrawal of affection is ever a good response.

My 4yo DD is very similar to what a lot of people have described. It is bloody difficult sometimes, but I think it is telling that the outcome often depends on my frame of mind. If I?m tired from work, or rushing to leave to get somewhere then I don?t have much patience and things quickly seem to escalate. When I am more patient and show steady resolve rather than leaping to threatening punishments and time out it works out much better, and probably quicker than otherwise.

My concern with the OP is that you say the main thing you won?t budge on is ?Do as I say?. Doesn?t that end up meaning pretty much everything then? If they are being too noisy, not eating their food properly, arguing over what clothes to wear and you tell them what you want them to do, doesn?t it then become a ?Do as I say? situation? If so then that would be incredibly wearing if you did time outs etc each time.