I think this is highly unreasonable re disabled pupils

[loopyluna]

I'm posting on here as, where I live, noone seems to find this as anything to get worked up about and I wanted to know if UK mummies felt the same...

My two eldest DC go to a private senior school. (Private schools here are much more affordable than the UK and are a lifestyle choice accessible to most.) I am very happy with the school, the teachers, pastoral care etc. It's got a good reputation and long waiting lists.

My niggle is that the school is comprised of several old buildings on a hill. The amount of stairs, inside and out, is phenomenal. All the classrooms, labs, music rooms and chapel can only be accessed by stairs. Only the dining room, library and offices are on the ground floor. I asked, when we first visited the school, what would a pupil do if they had an accident and needed crutches, and was told that, they would be allowed to leave to class 5 minutes early to avoid being jostled!

However, whenever I've mentioned to DH or other parents, that I am concerned that there is no accessibility for disabled pupils, I receive shrugs and "well they just have to go elsewhere!" The nearest comp has a v v bad reputation and I am actually upset that a physically disabled child would not have the choice of a better school, more caring enviroment etc.

AIBU or am I right to think that this would not be allowed in the UK?

[exexpat]

I expect some of them might like to move if they could possibly sell the old buildings for a reasonable price, but who would want to buy a 200-year-old listed building, designed as a school, which you are not allowed to adapt?

[livinginwonderland]

It's not so easy as to just sell them. My school was half in a listed building and half in more modern accommodation. There simply wasn't the funding to build more new buildings and there was no way to adapt or demolish the listed building.

The school was on 400 acres of parkland and the main building was the focal point of the school. It is very unfortunate that disabled pupils cannot access certain areas of the school (very steep steps, too narrow for a wheelchair user to even fit up), but the school cannot do a thing about it. Ideally, they would, but legally they can't.

[BaconKetchup]

It's expensive gimmeanaxe

And sometimes they like the tradition of the old buildings

[Calabria]

Oh hills and wheelchairs. I often acted as a brake for my ex bf when he was negotiating hills. He is very independent but will accept help for steep hills. It is extremely tiring going up and there is a risk of getting out of control going down.

He also had awesome upper body strength. Something a school child might not have.

My daughter's school buildings are very old with many stairs. In some places you have to go up five stairs, along a narrow corridor and then down seven stairs. Nightmare for the disabled. But they did rebuild a large part of the junior school last year and that bit is accessible to everyone.

[TheBuskersDog]

As we don't actually know what country the OP is in comparing what would happen in this country is not really useful. Many countries are way behind the UK in their attitudes to people with disabilities of any kind, so if she is in a country that is still in the dark ages generally with regard to disability accessible mainstream schools are not going to be considered important.

[crashdoll]

Hills can be tricky to navigate for wheelchair users, they can also be difficult for those with other mobility disabilities.

[WestieMamma]

A lot of old private schools were originally set up in buildings and on land donated to them. Selling them isn't an option if they are tied in by trusts and covenants.

My old school was originally a convent school. Now it's independent and only shares it's name with the convent. However the head teacher told me once that the land ownership reverts back to the convent if the school stopped operating on that site.

[TolliverGroat]

Comparing what would happen in this country is useful, because the OP specifically asked "am I right to think that this would not be allowed in the UK?"

It's well tricky at best to answer that question without talking about what happens in the UK.

[CHJR]

YANBU. DS1 is about to start at one of the academically top private schools in the UK and it's not wheelchair accessible. DS2 is disabled, and so are all his friends. Since he also has SEN, he'd never go there anyway, but it's very wrong that bright pupils who have merely motor disabilities would also be excluded. In fact, I chose DS1's previous school partly on the basis that is was the only one I could find that DID have full wheelchair access for DS2 to come to drop off and pick up. This new school is possible because DS1 is now old enough to go on his own, but I still would have chosen differently if I had been able to find a good school for him that was accessible. Think what a lesson it teaches our children that none of the top academic choices in the UK is wheelchair accessible.* All of them collect fees that should make it possible for them to fund lifts if they gave a F@%& (INSIDE listed buildings, changes ARE allowed: they do put in labs and gyms). They also could afford to boost bursaries substantially to make admissions financial-needs-blind!
In my country of origin it wouldn't be legal for a school to be licensed without being wheelchair accessible. But guess what? Less than one-quarter of London's subway system is wheelchair accessible. And as you notice, the debate about schools gets sidetracked by the many other injustices of the education system in the UK. I struggle with the disjunction between my views on social justice and sending DS1 to such a school at all: it's hypocritical, yes. But I would never put a principle before my actual child. And I feel DS1 already suffers a lot from DS2's disabilities.
Yet I feel guilty, and I wish more fellow parents wouldn't wait till their DC break a leg or something to join me in lobbying these schools!
*(That will prob start a bunfight about definition of "top school academically," but put it this way: Eton is not wheelchair accessible. Winchester is not. Westminster is not. St Paul's is not, despite being built in 60s and 70s. St Paul's Girls is not. Wycombe Abbey is not. Neither are: Sevenoaks School, Godolphin & Latimer, Latymer, Fettes, Dulwich, Alleyn's, King's Wimbledon OR Canterbury... City of London Boys is ALMOST accessible but still not quite! Makes you wonder about the notion they have the best educators?)

[thezebrawearspurple]

The secondary school I went to was made up of several old buildings, steep stairs everywhere and it was very spaced out, we were kept very fit running to class four buildings and five sets of stairs away. There was an older girl in a wheelchair, the school arranged for all of her classes to be on ground floor level in some of the more accessible buildings. I presume that in your schools situation they would adapt to the individuals situation using common sense. As for a kid hurting themselves and having to use crutches for a while, there's nothing wrong with letting them adapt and expecting them to learn to use the stairs, a broken leg is not comparable with paralysis and does not make you disabled

[frogspoon]

All schools in the UK (including private) are required to make reasonable adjustments to allow students and staff with disabilities to attend/ work at the school. These may be e.g. installing a ramp or lift, or ensuring all student's lessons are on the ground floor.

Any new buildings must be fully accessible, the difficulty is adaptation of older buildings. In some cases, the building is too old and would not be able to withstand the adjustment, or a building may be listed and the changes would not be permitted.

Over time as school buildings get replaced with new accessible ones, hopefully this will become less of an issue.

[gimmeanaxe]

It does say a lot that the so-called best schools are not accessible. A mind like Stephen Hawkins would be fucked really if their parents wanted the 'best' school (this isnt to say I believe these places offer the best education though but they do turn out the people who get into power)
Change is certainly needed.

[GobbySadcase]

Yet another one sadly unsurprised at the 'tough shit' posts.
And this of a site with a 'This is my child' campaign.

Mind you HQ have stated that unintentional disablism is ok, so if that's where the marker has been set as a community.... Ho hum.

[Jan49]

Think what a lesson it teaches our children that none of the top academic choices in the UK is wheelchair accessible.

Probably the same lesson they'll learn from the school being 'inaccessible' to about 95% or more of children because their parents aren't high enough earners.

[MrsHoarder]

Gobby the op didn't ask what would be morally prefect, she asked what would happen in the UK.

[livinginwonderland]

I love how so many people are referring to me (and others) as having a "tough shit" attitude.

It's more of a "the school cannot legally do anything about it when they are in a listed building" attitude. Ideally, all schools would have perfect disabled access, but when the law states that listed buildings cannot be changed/adapted, what to you lot propose these schools DO?

[topbannana]

When I was a child I remember students on crutches leaving class 5 minutes early- I guess that would happen even in a building with proper disabled access as the risk of being trampled in the crush would be too great.
DS goes to a very small village school with limited space. A bit in a wheelchair joined a couple of years ago, a ramp had been installed prior to that. The problem came with the toilets and access so eventually the boy left and went to a different school. There really was no way that the school could accommodate him (short of demolishing and rebuilding the school) and there seemed to be no issue with that.
If I really wanted my child to go to a particular school and the school could not accommodate their needs I guess I would have to go elsewhere.
YABU

[Dawndonna]

Yeah, you'd have to go elsewhere, topbanana but why should you?
Why does my dd not have the same rights as your children?

Listed buildings can be changed internally if they are already a school.

[CHJR]

Oh, I know, I know, Jan49. Believe me, if I am a self-confessed hypocrite, I am one who does not sleep well at nights for thinking about this (and who volunteers in the local state school as an assistant, and trustee). My deep fear is that my DS1 is not only going to learn that the world is unfair to the disabled, and to anyone not quite rich, but worst of all that it is too hard for one person to change the world so you might as well not try. I fear sometimes that that is what I have learned since moving here and subsequently having a disabled child. Know what? Not having bags of money to toss around will affect the disabled children even more than the clever -- from what we have found, you can't even get a Statement of Special Needs out of a lot of cash-strapped Local Education Authorities unless you can afford: a) a SAH parent being full-time on the task of getting the Statement for several years; b) lots of private doctors to nudge the NHS into referring your DC to NHS specialists; c) a solicitor. At least, that's what it took us, and we didn't even need the Statement in the sense that we didn't need monetary support for DS2. Those who have the least power to fight for a Statement are the ones who most NEED one. What chance do you think DS2 would have if he had been DS6 in a single-parent family where mother was an immigrant with poor English skills, a well-founded fear of authority, two jobs, no money and no hope or optimism left?

I waver between feeling that my first job as a mum is to advocate for my own children and trying to do as much as I can for other children, not least because I feel it benefits MY children for ALL CHILDREN to be treated properly. No philosophy I've ever heard explains why I have any right to put my own children first. None. But as someone else noted higher up in this thread ... just what are those of you who are not PERSONALLY affected by these problems doing to fix them?

Find me a barricade and I will join you on it. Just as soon as I finish lifting DS2 and his wheelchair up the steps to the barricade ...

[livinginwonderland]

They CAN be changed, yes, but if they're not allowed to change (ie. if they've applied and been denied) they can't really do much about it.

[Dawndonna]

Living It is rare that they are turned down under those circumstances, many schools/businesses use it as an excuse believing, quite rightly, that nobody is going to check up on whether they have genuinely applied or not.

[Jamillalliamilli]

I?m (a LP) in a wheelchair and most senior state schools in my borough don?t make their buildings actually accessible and none accept pupils permanently in wheelchairs. They have to go out of borough.

One would be w/c accessible if the lift was fixed. It had been broken three years when I viewed, and two children temporarily in w/c?s were being carried up the stairs by other pupils.

I was told I couldn?t be accommodated to view any part of two schools and not to come, another warned me that they would have to do everything ecept open day by phone if we got in there.

As a parent I?ve forced staff members to hold meetings in the car park, when the school we got used supposed inability to get me into the building, as an excuse to not discuss statementing my child. (Despite having an expensive disabled entrance inaccessible to w/c users!)

When they said they had to cancel because it?s raining, I brought them an umbrella. When they realised this was how it would be, they realised they could let me drive to an accessible door on a hill too steep for a w/c, after all.

My LEA have forced me to attend statementing meetings with them in the dole office interview rooms with angry people and security disrupting meetings. They have an accessible building, but chose to do that.

It is an independent school with mainly listed buildings but a brand new disabled accessible building who heard what was happening and offered use of their facilities if I need to have meetings, FOC.

LEA suddenly realised they could arrange to see me in their offices after all, but I?m now home educating and the offer has been taken up for several other things.

They have several inaccessible listed buildings, but seem able to timetable and room arrange to accommodate any disabled pupil.

It?s all about attitude, not who?s private, who?s state, or who?s on a hill.

[GobbySadcase]

They've made Osborne House accessible. Very sympathetically, as it happens.

I don't buy the "it's listed, it can't be done" line.

[CHJR]

Tell you another shocker: when it became clear that DS's disabilities were intellectual not just physical, everyone around me people who knew DS1 was privately educated and whose own children were all god forbid privately educated immediately told me that I must put DS2 into the state system because then the state would pay for all his special help. And then you wonder why the state schools struggle. A lot of these oh-so-good private schools surely only get good results because they only accept the easy-to-educate children. Just like this funny thing you have here in the UK where if you're rich and everything's looking healthy you have your baby in the Portland Hospital with champagne on tap -- but if something goes wrong during that delivery, the Portland will pop you in an ambulance or helicopter, paid for by the state, and ship you to the nearest NHS hospital. Whose birth statistics will then show less perfect birth outcomes than the private hospital's. Nice trick, isn't it?
(Don't mean to imply that where I come from is perfect BTW. I'm in the UK semi-voluntarily, and glory in not having to worry about being tear-gassed or arrested at the drop of a hat.)

[Wheresmycaffeinedrip]

When you say that they are allowed to alter inside if its a school is that any kind of alteration? Is it not true then that listed buildings Are unable to alter any of the structure inside ?

Just thinking that if the only areas safe to put a lift involves moving old support posts and other original parts of the structure that might be turned down. Whereas of its an addition inside and doesn't mean knocking walls or posts down then that might be given the go ahead?