I think this is highly unreasonable re disabled pupils

[loopyluna]

I'm posting on here as, where I live, noone seems to find this as anything to get worked up about and I wanted to know if UK mummies felt the same...

My two eldest DC go to a private senior school. (Private schools here are much more affordable than the UK and are a lifestyle choice accessible to most.) I am very happy with the school, the teachers, pastoral care etc. It's got a good reputation and long waiting lists.

My niggle is that the school is comprised of several old buildings on a hill. The amount of stairs, inside and out, is phenomenal. All the classrooms, labs, music rooms and chapel can only be accessed by stairs. Only the dining room, library and offices are on the ground floor. I asked, when we first visited the school, what would a pupil do if they had an accident and needed crutches, and was told that, they would be allowed to leave to class 5 minutes early to avoid being jostled!

However, whenever I've mentioned to DH or other parents, that I am concerned that there is no accessibility for disabled pupils, I receive shrugs and "well they just have to go elsewhere!" The nearest comp has a v v bad reputation and I am actually upset that a physically disabled child would not have the choice of a better school, more caring enviroment etc.

AIBU or am I right to think that this would not be allowed in the UK?

[Wheresmycaffeinedrip]

There could be several things at work.

The school may well have applied fir planning permission and funding in order to make alterations and been turned down.

There may well be transport provided to a good school that's disabled friendly , the op has no idea of any provisions in place for these pupils. She's assuming they go to the crappy local school but has presented no evidence that this is the case or that no effort has been made to her what pupils they can into the private school.

[squeakytoy]

It it was the ONLY school in the area, and no facilities meant that a disabled child (or even a disabled teacher/staff member) could not attend school, then it is fair enough to demand that adjustments be made, but if there is a nearby alternative to that school, then disabled pupils are not being denied an education.

[Wheresmycaffeinedrip]

To get- not her

[livinginwonderland]

Timetabling.

It can all be solved by timetabling.

Wrong. My school was built on a huge hill. The only way to get between buildings was to walk up or down steep hills. We had dedicated science buildings etc. so it's not as though you could just move science to say, the geography building because there was no equipment for science there.

The lunch hall was up a steep hill from the classrooms, the sports centre down the other side of the hill. The main building was listed and couldn't be altered. If you were a wheelchair user, sadly, there was no way you could attend that school.

[Birdsgottafly]

"but where does the funding come from"

From a variety of sources, including the EU.

It can work out cheaper tomake adaptations,instead of having tofund private tutoring, or smaller units, as happens for temporary injuries, which cause wheelchair use etc.

The Equality Act, closed the loop holes for in direct discrimination, which is what not having accessabilty comes under.

A complaint doesn't have to come directly from a parent, it is a legal duty to not discriminate unreasonably, this check is done alongside other checks, in the same way that a fire/health safety check is done.

Ofstead also looks into these issues.

[hellhasnofurylikeahungrywoman]

livinginwonderland Electric wheelchair and a bit of timetable/classroom use reshuffling? Lessons can come to the pupil in some situations rather than the pupil going to the lesson (for example; I worked with a child on 02 who wasn't allow in the cooking suite at school because of a risk assessment so the lesson came to that child)

[AmberLeaf]

Hellhas... well where does the funding for anything come from? You're not talking about a small business here. So funding or lack of isn't an excuse.

[hellhasnofurylikeahungrywoman]

The funding is there, in my experience, once the school know of a student who would like to use the school but until that time is is difficult to secure funding.

[Dawndonna]

FFS. Many wheelchair users are quite capable of managing a steep hill.

[Birdsgottafly]

Agree with Living, you cannot move a room full of computers, or craft/cooking equipment.

There isn't the room for adaptations, in every case, selling off all of the spare land around the schools, didn't help.

That is why many cities have had to move and link their Museums, for example, or have them across different sites.

[Blu]

Westiemamma - yes it would! Many businesses and public buildings have done jut that - and with good will - in order to achieve accessibility.

[Sirzy]

Can can move a laptop, or a lot of equipment for one lesson. It's not ideal but sometimes it's the only/easiest option.

[Blu]

SqueakyToy - do you think disabled people should have all their choices defined by disability, then?

While parents of able-bodied children here win appeals galore based on the right individual school for their child, spend endless MN threads poring over this school or that school? Of course disabled children are subject to many of the other parameters of 'choice' that able bodied children are, such as the affordability o fprivate, selection for grammar, over-subscribed schools - but in your version as long as they can physically get in they need no other basis for choice.

Actually, of course, the criteria for admissions in the UK usually give priority to children with SEN, so there is real choice - which is a good thing in my opinion.

[hellhasnofurylikeahungrywoman]

Budgets are tight, more and more schools are struggling to afford the levels of staffing that they need so they make adjustments where they see fit. The schools I've worked in have had to fight hard to get funding to make adaptations for a known pupil, so I can only imagine what it would be like applying for funding for a hypothetical case. We need to be tackling the aspect of listed buildings protection, I see no reasons why listed buildings cannot reflect the times they live in as well as protecting the in inherent structure and integrity of the building.

We don't know how the school in the OP would react if a child who was a chair user wanted to join the roll because as far as I could see the OP only asked about a short term disability. I would be interested to see if they change their tune if she follows this up as she intends to (I suspect they won't mind you).

[hellhasnofurylikeahungrywoman]

You can move a room full of equipment if you choose to. The new room becomes the new IT suite/cookery class/science lab and the old room takes on a new purpose. It maybe costly in the beginning but there is nearly always an alternative with a bit of clever thinking.

[Jan49]

I'm baffled by the references to hills. Do people think wheelchairs users can only use them on flat surfaces? Surely it's steps that are a problem, not hills?

[exexpat]

New schools in the UK have to built with accessible designs, but with a lot of older ones (including many private schools) it is just not possible to adapt them.

DS goes to a private school which is in a listed building on a steep hill, and is a positive warren of corridors and steep staircases. There is one lift between the two main floors, so for example when one of the teachers had a broken leg recently, they reshuffled his classes so that he only had to use rooms accessible by that lift, but I'm not sure if they could do that long-term for a pupil (eg I don't think any of the science labs are accessible).

DD's school is also private, similar age, but more level site. There is one boy I know in the secondary section who has severe disabilities (can talk, but has no independent movement, needs a Steven Hawking-style wheelchair, and a full-time adult helper) and the school has managed to arrange timetables/classrooms so that he can do everything. However, a friend whose daughter uses a wheelchair has just decided against sending her to the same school (even though her brother will be there) because although she uses a wheelchair, she has full use of her arms, can propel herself etc but would struggle with some of the transfers between classrooms (involving crossing roads etc) by herself, and she is not otherwise disabled enough to need extra help in the classroom. Instead they are sending her to a recently refurbished state school which is fully accessible.

It would be great if all schools were fully accessible, but in many cases that would involve knocking them down and starting from scratch. Same goes for private homes - my father has only been to my house once or twice since I moved here because it is old with lots of odd changes in level and stairs, which he cannot cope with (part-time wheelchair user).

[exexpat]

Just to clarify about friend's daughter - the school would have ensured that she got help with transfers and so on, but her parents thought it was on balance better for her to go somewhere where she could move around independently as much as possible.

[TolliverGroat]

In the UK and a friend of mine is looking ahead at a school for her wheelchair-using DS2. There is one state state primary school in our borough that "might" be able to take him, one school in the next borough that could (but would depend on whether they have a wheelchair-using child from that borough) and one private school that has apparently had children who use wheelchairs before (I know it also currently has at least one profoundly deaf pupil as I was chatting to his mother at tge Hearing Impaired centre recently) but they wouldn't decide whether his needs would be "too disruptive" until shortly before he started (and apparently wouldn't refund the deposit even if they decided not to take him; also he lives just outside its catchment area so might not qualify for a place anyway).

If more people gave thought to "hypothetical" children with disabilities then the actual children with disabilities might not be in this position.

[gimmeanaxe]

Is Eton accessible out of interest?
My dd faces a 90 mile a day round trip as there's not one school suitable in the entire city for her. This is fucking ridiculous. What other parent or child would have to put up with this shit?

[Tanith]

Steps aren't always a problem to a wheelchair user and hills certainly aren't.
Many wheelchair users will get out of their chairs and drag themselves upstairs if necessary. They've had to: they can't guarantee lifts or slopes being available and they're not prepared to sit waiting around for someone to do something about it.

A bit confused about the "private schools don't accept disabled children" presumption from some posters as well. They most certainly do.

[Birdsgottafly]

"I'm baffled by the references to hills."

The point was that the school was old and built on a hill, in a time that anyone who was disabled in any way, would be in an institution, or behind closed doors at home.

If it natural landscape, it makes it more difficult to adapt. I have known that to apply to private houses, in Wales. If they hadn't of moved, they would of been housebound.

Some lung conditions, as well as lots of others means that hills make a place inaccessable.

[exexpat]

From my experience of pushing my father in a wheelchair, the steep gradients at DS's school would make life extremely difficult if not impossible for anyone in a manual wheelchair, quite apart from the stairs. Obviously an electric wheelchair would make it more do-able.

[gimmeanaxe]

I dont know why private schools dont move out of their ancient buildings into modern accomodation to be honest. I went to an event held in a private school (which charges thousands) and inside it was shoddy with ancient pipes, faulty heating and falling off bits.