To disagree with inheritance as a concept

[HeadsDownThumbsUp]

Just that. I think it's odd that the concept of inheritance is barely questioned in our society.

I don't think that anyone can really talk about social mobility in a meaningful way, or interrogate the class system, while wealth is still inherited.

Inheritance IS the class system.

In my opinion, inherited wealth is incompatible with a meritocratic society. It is also add odds with entrepreneurialism, and more generally the notion that wealth is earned through hard work, and thus deserved.

Thoughts?

[RichManPoorManBeggarmanThief]

If you think about when most people inherit from their parents it is quite late in their lives- possibly not until they themselves are retired. I would argue that this does less damage to meritocracy than if inheritance tax were so high that people gave chunks to their kids as soon as they reached adulthood. Also, IMO the largest factor in life outcomes is cultural inheritance and unless you want to start putting all kids into care at birth do they all receive equal input,, there's nothing you can do about that- eg I believe the single largest deterninig factor on a child's academic achievement is the education level of its mother.

[claig]

Communist Manifesto links come from www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm

[Annaliveinalice]

Yes increase inheritance tax and start encouraging people to spend their wealth and share with their families before they die. Would be a much healthier society.

All too often I come across elderly people who don't want to spend much as they want to leave a big inheritance. Also there are younger people waiting years for 'their' inheritance and putting plans on hold or making risky choices etc because of it.

Would be much nicer if people spent their money or gifted it while alive.

This would put more of a burden on the public purse in regards to care homes perhaps, but maybe the standard of care there would increase if more of the population expected to end up at the 'mercy' of govt provided aged care. Which would be good news for all!

[Monty27]

I did get an A in my O level History, my specialist subjects? Russia, China and the second world war

[WafflyVersatile]

I don't know what meritocratic looks like. To me it would look like a society that paid more to the woman who wipes the arses of the elderly and infirm than people who work selling double glazing or wanking about on the stock market.

[Arisbottle]

DH and I often discuss what we will do with our money when we die, taking into account that we are not expecting a state pension or free care when we are older.

I would like to be able to leave money to help young people from working class backgrounds like ourselves go to university or to pursue hobbies and interest . My children are incredibly lucky that they have been able to pursue some rather expensive hobbies and this has helped make them rounder interesting young people.

I would like to see a society in which philanthropy becomes a popular option not just for the mega wealthy but people like us.

[Monty27]

Yes, I'm that old, and there was not point in my doing A levels because my parents simply couldn't afford to finance me, I would have had to leave home, Thatcher was in government then and there wouldn't have been a job at the end of it for me anyway. So, not that old

[MorrisZapp]

I agree with richmanpoorman. Why stop at money. Why not even out society by banning parents from handing over their education, knowledge, confidence and life skills. Surely that is the biggest influence on their offpsring's life chances.

Also, could you say what some of the many things are that could be done with people's money other than it going to the government.

[claig]

"I don't have precise tax bands or the details of a new social order worked out"

You want a new social order and the Communists wanted to destroy the old social order

"necessitate further inroads upon the old social order , and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production."


Defend inheritance, defend the family and defeat the tiny ruling elite knowns Communists.

[WafflyVersatile]

here, claig, have my tinfoil hat.

[CloudsAndTrees]

You can question inheritance, but if you're going to do so then you also need to question family ties and freedom of choice.

Inheritance isn't just a concept, it something that comes from people feeling that they want to provide for the next generation, and that has been fundamental to survival of humanity.

It's also a result of the choices than individual people make withe their own property. If something rightfully belongs to someone, either because they have been gifted it, earned it, or they have inherited it, then it is theirs do do what they want with. You can't take that basic right away from people, so there seems little point in questioning the rights or wrongs inheritance. You may as well ask whether it's ok to steal.

[WafflyVersatile]

The current social order is shite. No social justice for the vast majority of people.

Defeat the tiny ruling elite known as capitalist leaders.

[claig]

"Take it you're a big fan of nepotism too?"

Certainly not, because I believe in a meritocracy where the elite have to compete on merit for any job. However, that doesn't mean that I believe in stripping families of accumulated wealth and preventing people passing their accumulated wealth to the next generation of their family.

Family, inheritance and meritocracy are all compatible.

[Arisbottle]

I also don't see the taxman as an evil snatcher of my hard earned wealth.

Taxes paid for my degree so that I could escape the cycle of deprivation my family were locked in. Taxes pay for the education of our children, our healthcare, the police etc.

[HeathRobinson]

I disagree with inheritance tax as a concept.

[Monty27]

Is meritocratic an actual word OP?

Well said posters above. :)

'Meritocratic' indeed . Talk to the classes OP, it may not be necessary on MN to use such language. Are you writing a dissertation on Stalin or something?

[HeadsDownThumbsUp]

I think that cultural inheritance is great! It enriches everybody in the end. And although I see where you're coming from, richman, I also think it would be more advantageous for everybody for wealth and opportunity to be 'passed down' earlier, at a stage where people are more likely to use it to develop their skills, advance their education and start businesses, as all of these uses have knock-on benefits. What has very little knock-on benefit to anybody else, is passing chunks of locked up capital from generation to generation, often tied up in land or property.

Monty, like you say, I think everyone understands what is meant by meritocratic, and I'm not really trying to say anything more radical than that. I don't think that we can realistically say that people's financial circumstances and opportunities in life are really determined by their skills and talents whilst we also have a cultural tradition of inherited wealth. If people are comfortable with that, then fine, but it would be nice if we could stop bashing the poor and telling them that they are poor because they aren't hard working/talented/innovative enough at the same time.

[claig]

'so there seems little point in questioning the rights or wrongs inheritance. You may as well ask whether it's ok to steal.'

In which case we are again back to communism.

[WafflyVersatile]

I've already said I don't. I don't know what you mean by meritocratic.

What happens in your meritocracy to those who don't have skills and talents?

[claig]

"I also don't see the taxman as an evil snatcher of my hard earned wealth."

But we all pay taxes during our lifetimes. What we are now talking about is should the socialist take after tax savings from people at death and deny people the right to pass their after tax accumulated wealth on to their families.

[HeadsDownThumbsUp]

Meritocratic is a word, Monty. I don't see what you're getting at.

[WafflyVersatile]

I totally agree with not blaming the poor for being poor when they have inherited that every bit as much as the powerful have often inherited their wealth and a lovely little network of old boys.

[claig]

"I don't think that we can realistically say that people's financial circumstances and opportunities in life are really determined by their skills and talents whilst we also have a cultural tradition of inherited wealth."

But this false argument of fairness used by communists and some socialists would logically lead to nations too being stripped of their inherited wealth and given to a supranational governemnt in order to provide a level playing field for poorer countries.

This is against freedom, incentive, justice and human progress. The right to pass on the fruits of our labour to our families is what led to human progress.

[HeadsDownThumbsUp]

Waffly, to be honest - I don't think we do live in a meritocracy - nor am I wholly in love with the idea of a meritocracy - at least as it is construed by neoliberals. I completely agree with you re "the woman who wipes the arses of the elderly and infirm". I'm just tired of being told that we do live in a meritocracy, and that it's a wonderful thing, when we very evidently don't.

Clouds, I see where you're coming from regarding the supposed 'natural' imperative behind inheritance as a system but the notion that "You can't take that basic right away from people, so there seems little point in questioning the rights or wrongs inheritance." is something I slightly disagree with. As a society we've questioned and changed our cultural practises continually, and I just don't see why inheritance is inviolate.

It seems that quite a few other posters also feel that individual wealth would be better spent or gifted during a persons lifetime. I don't think there's necessarily anything so radical about that.

Claig...I just can't. Sorry.

[Morloth]

If not the government then who do you envisage as taking control of this wealth and redistributing it?