To (privately) disapprove of my friend having a cleaner

[Unami]

Ok. This may be long, but I will do my best to explain where I am coming from. My friend has a cleaner and I privately disapprove. I would never make an issue of it to her, or even bring it up. It was brought up by another friend when we were at her place for drinks. She was a bit about it, and it led to a big discussion, but I didn't say anything committal. I do recognise that she can hire a cleaner if she likes. If she likes she can hire a troupe of jugglers and have them juggle in her kitchen all day, if she likes. It's none of my business, I get that.

But I still privately disapprove. AIBU?

Her cleaner comes to her two bedroom flat twice a week and gives it a full clean, and that apparently includes hoovering all carpets and upholdstry, dusting all surfaces, polishing wood, sweeping and cleaning wooden floor in hall and kitchen, emptying waste bins in the house and taking kitchen bins round the back, cleaning mirrors, cleaning the inside of windows, full clean of the kitchen including inside the fridge, full clean of bathroom. Once a month she also gets the oven cleaned, extractor fan cleaned and polished (!?), cupboards dusted inside and out. She says she pays £45 a week for this.

It's just her in the flat. She doesn't have kids and doesn't live with her bf.

Here's my perspective. People say that having a cleaner is just like hiring any other service provider. But it's not. Domestic cleaners clean intimate, private parts of our houses, and clean up our bodily mess, and it's low paid, low status work. Yes, people hire gardeners and window cleaners, but these are roles which require specialist equipment and insurance, and they only work on the outside and periphery of your home. Yes, I recognise that cleaners are employed in offices I use, cafes I eat in and so on, but it's not really the same either. Most commerical cleaners are employed as staff and so get holiday pay, sick pay, NI etc. Agency workers don't have it so good, and I disagree with the terms of their employment too. But domestic cleaners are often paid cash in hand because employers think they are doing them a favour. But they have no holiday, sick pay - what happens if they have an accident in the house they are cleaning in. I know there are some well organised small cleaning companies, but I think they are the exception.

But most of all, I just feel like my friend is just being lazy or thinks she's too good to pick up after herself. If you are elderly or disabled or immobile, then I see nothing wrong with getting the help that you need. Likewise, if you have a busy family, and don't want to be stuck being the person who picks up after everyone else - get the help you need and show the family how much your time costs. But if you have a quiet life and are fit and healthy, I don't see why you think it's ok to have someone over to clean your toilet. I also think that people who say they are so impossibly busy with work that they can't lift a duster once a week really ought to think about cutting back their ft hours, and give others access to the surplus of work they have.

I'm not going to have a go at my friend. But I just don't think it's right.

[Saski]

I think it's fair to say that a good number of those who are uncomfortable with the arrangement would agree that not hiring a cleaner is addressing the symptom rather than the cause.

I would like for every cleaner to be a cleaner by choice and treated/paid well. This is not faux concern, as someone noted upstream a bit. Were this the case, I would have no issues. As it stands, I remain a bit guilt-ridden.

And, I have a problem with lack of social mobility in general --> pools of professions loosely determined at birth. This doesn't mean that I'm a Marxist or similar.

[ExRatty]

If you have the time and inclination to clean your own gaff then great

otherwise get yourself a cleaner

it isn't a matter of conscience, it's a matter of choice

[Kewcumber]

"But I just don't think it's right." well no you've made that clear - thats why you don't have a cleaner.
Your friends doesn't have the same view so is happy to hire a cleaner.

You do understand that just because you think something doesn;t actually make is true?

My mum has been a cleaner in the past and I have hired cleaners in the past. I agree that many cleaners tend to be less well paid than those who employ them (otherwise you couldn't afford one ) but I think the days are long gone where only the upper middle classes employed cleaners.

If you employ anyone the onus is on you to treat people fairly and pay people fairly whatever job they do - I don't understand why you reserve your disapproval for cleaners and want to make them all unemployed.

[FasterStronger]

goldenbear - you feel strongly about not having a cleaner.

but do you eat meat? fly? give as much as you could to charity? buy fairtrade? organic? high welfare? drive a car?

everyone has different opinions about what is important to them. about what is the right thing to do.

[badbride]

Life is not wholly about making yourself happy at the expense of others.

Just playing devil's advocate here, Goldenbear, but isn't that what you are doing? You have a strong conviction that one should clean up one's own mess, and choose to live by it - presumably because living according to moral standards is part of what makes for a happy and fulfilling life.

Yet in doing so, you are denying someone else the opportunity of gainful employment, ie making yourself happy at their expense. Perhaps you should disagree with emplying a cleaner, yet employ one anyway, to solve this paradox? [leg-pulling icon]

[TrucksAndDinosaurs]

Cleaning up mess and daily tidying happens al day every day, as well as having a cleaner. Cooking shopping washing ironing child care vacuuming putting away toys wiping surfaces washing up...all this is stuff dc see and learn to join in with.

The cleaner comes and does a proper clean, which is tricky with an active toddler. I can't bleach the bathroom or floors with him dashing about.

[flowery]

It's really not that difficult to teach children about cleaning up their own mess and have a cleaner.

I'm also realistic enough to be aware that I use many services provided either directly or indirectly by people who are not happy in their work because not everyone can have a job they love. That doesn't mean I'm making myself happy "at the expense of others".

Only buying goods or services when everyone involved in providing them is very happy in their work is not realistic unless you are going to be self-sufficient and knit your own yoghurt and weave your own lentils.

[Goldenbear]

No it's about 'thinking' about the impact that my decisions make on others. We can afford a cleaner but we don't want one as I strongly believe we should clean up our own mess. To me it is a fundamental lesson in life that I want my children to understand. Life is not wholly about making yourself happy at the expense of others. That is not something I'd want my children to believe.

[WobblyHalo]

Wanted to add my voice to the pro-cleaning brigade.

I hate cleaning. I'm crap at it (probably because I hate it). I like reading, playing with the kids, being creative. Creativity is completely blocked when you're constantly remembering bits you still have to do in the house.

I treat my cleaner well. I love her and couldn't lead the lifestyle I do without her (which is not wealthy in material things, but wealthy in love and time and peace). I gave her a huge bonus at Christmas. When she asked me why, I explained that without her looking after my house, I cannot look after my children the way I do. So I owe her a gratitude for my quaility of life.

If my lawyer or accountant or dentist contributed to my quality of life they way she does, then I would also love them, or call them a 'gem' or whatever.

Personally, I think the people who are against hiring cleaners are the 'martyr' types. So they can tell their children how hard they worked all their lives. To me, that's just stupid.

[Fecklessdizzy]

Actually Curry that's exactly how the lady who does us got started. High powered job, crap work/ life balance - something had to give.

[curryeater]

I would have a cleaner again if I could (as I said up-thread, ironically the reason I can't right now is because I am concerned about their working conditions) but although I hate the circumstances under which I clean my house, I don't hate cleaning per se.
I am now considering looking into this as a business idea. What I hate about it is doing a scrappy job, which no one acknowledges as something that takes up time, around everything else I have to do, in some half-arsed, arm's length way because I am wearing good work clothes but have noticed the state of the sink while dd is in the bath, for instance.
I wouldn't mind cleaning in the right clothes, with an ipod on, in an empty house, PAID, and not trying to do it at the same time as something else, and taking pride in a good job done from beginning to end, properly. On that basis, and on the basis that I am quite organised and pleasant in real life (believe it or not!) maybe I could make a go of it, for a while till both dcs are in school, because the amount we pay on childcare and my train fares is insane. I might go and crunch some numbers. I love my job but right now I hate my life.

[SparkyTGD]

Me too Scholes

[prettybird]

But "mess" is not necessarily messy but you just want it cleaned up.

Dust falls all the time, dirt come in on your shoes (and even stocking feet), kitchen surfaces and ovens occasionally need more than a wipe over, windows need cleaned, skirting obards get dirty, fat settles on the top of kitchen cabinets.

What is wrong with getting someone else to do it?

I get someone else to service my car. I go out occasionally for a meal. We get someone in to paint the house. I buy the occasional ready meal even though I enjoy cooking. I go on holiday and have a chambermaid/man replace the sheets in the hotel. It's all about making choices about what to do with the money I have. We live in an exchange economy.

I genuinely don't understand the logic of your point - unless we all go back to caves and do everything for ourselves.

[DailyNameChanger]

It sounds like bloody heaven to me.

[Cloverer]

Those who are anti-cleaner, is it ok to outsource childcare? Babysitting doesn't involve special equipment etc, it is done in your home, usually paid worse than cleaning.

[Scholes34]

It sounds like OP's friend's cleaner is on to a good thing. Cleaning the small flat of someone who lives alone - it's hardly going to get very dirty or untidy with the frequency with which it's cleaned.

I'd do it for £42 per week!

[SparkyTGD]

YABU, there is nothing wrong with hiring a cleaner if you can afford it.

And it gives someone a job.

[Cloverer]

We do make a distinction in our society between selling your body, and selling your time/labour.

[starkadder]

Haven't read the whole thread (got about half way through) but totally think YANBU. I completely agree with you, and often think the same thing - plus, I think you've explained your point very well and, at least up to as far as I read, have stayed calm and taken criticism exceptionally well!

I do agree with you - you're not saying cleaners per se at wrong, or that your friend is lazy or disrespectful, just that there's something uncomfortable about someone outsourcing basic cleaning up after themselves. For me, at least, getting some help cleaning windows, ovens, or maybe carpet shampooing or whatever would be one thing - but hiring someone to empty your bin and wipe your sink after you've brushed your teeth seems not right. I think when you said that it is a leveller you were right. As individuals, we should be responsible at some tiny level for the mess we leave behind us.

But I can never explain this properly in real life - have tried and everyone thinks I am a freak - but I am so glad I am not alone!

[WilsonFrickett]

Why do these arguments not apply to lap dancers and prostitutes

you are really going to have to spell that out for me because if I compared my cleaner to a lap dancer or a prostitute she would lamp me with the Flash. And quite right too.

Selling sex is not the same as selling a service.

[Cloverer]

eccentrica, so what are cleaners supposed to do if everyone decides it's wrong to employ them?

[Stangirl]

I admit I need to go back and read more of the posts but the OP outraged me considerably and I wanted to write something straight away.

OP YABU - and I think your post says a lot more about your qualities as a friend and human being than it does about whether someone should have a cleaner.

My Grandmother (who did much of my bringing up) was a cleaner all her life and worked into her late 70s doing so. Your post implies that you yourself have a very poor view of cleaners - and I had never even considered that others would have this view of my Grandma. I've heard the "oh they have a cleaner because she's lazy" argument before and just find that annoying but am quite aggrieved at what you seem to think about cleaners themselves ie low status work etc

FWIW My Grandma was a cleaner, my Mum (single mother) has had a cleaner all my life and I've had one since I bought my first flat (aged 25, single, no kids at the time). I give my cleaner sick and holiday pay (for when both she or I am away) and I in no way view what she does as beneath me - I just hate cleaning.

[eccentrica]

I try to teach my daughter that, and she's two. Anyway. I think I've said everything I've got to say. People can do whatever they want afaic, and I can have my own reaction to it, which is that I think people (men and women) should not get other people to clean their toilets and floors for them, just because they've got more money.

Must get on with some actual work now. Agree to disagree and all that. Farewell

[curryeater]

Sex work is different because sex is different. You know why, if you think about it for less than 0.002 minutes.

[prettybird]

I still don't understand eccentrica's position: if she is against employing a cleaner, is she also against shop bought clothes (you could have made them yourself), eating out (waiting staff are not paid well so don't give them the business), shop bought meals (we could have made them ourselves plus of course the check-out operator will not be well paid ), ever staying in a hotel (both cleaner and waiting staff )..... in fact, anything where you could have done it yourself and the person doing it instead is paid less than you.